What comes after death? Vote then discuss!

[Mr.Unreal]

I voted for nothing. I believe that when we die and when we are buried we cease to exist. There is nothing to witness that we have been alive but our actions in our life. After death we continue to live through our actions in the people we have affected.

Thats my opinion

[Mr-Jigsaw]

It matters because many people choose actions during their life based on what they believe will happen afterwards. Sometimes these chosen actions are very negative.

What kind of decisions, to be exact, do you mean?

Agreed, but there's more. These people value their beliefs more than their own reason.

Or they have used their logic to come to their conclusion. It's not necessarily intellectual laziness, depending on how someone has come to the decision.

Frankly, knowing that humans are still deluded enough state something as fact when there is no evidence or reason to support makes me disappointed and apathetic. Evolution still has a long way to go, but then our species will truly be something to be marveled at. Until then, it's ignorance and lower back pain.

Stop the melodrama. There are so many worse things to be disappointed for in this world. Faith is a really dumb thing to make you apathetic, when there is so much real injustice that deserves your attention.
And the rest is plain malarkey. You really have so much to complain about, what with being a part of the most highly evolved species in Earth's multi-billion year history, and potentially that of the entire galaxy, and yet, it's not good enough for you. Don't kid yourself, at the present, we are something to be marveled at.

[Dionysos]

We are and we aren't. Our current state (world wide) compared to our potential is something to be depressed about. Faith in the religious sense and the mindset that accompanies it (it's a kind of double-think really) is the reason for a lot of the problems we face today, because faith encourages or nourishes the kind of reasoning where you don't need proof and fall prey to simple slogans and pseudo-logic.

I think the kinds of decisions he means are for example when you live your life trusting that there will be a heaven, a really nice afterlife. God is always forgiving. People can twist it in all kinds of ways, jesus already died for our sins. So why improve things here and now? God is always forgiving. Another extreme example is suicide bombers, trusting that their last deed will grant them the right to enter heaven. But the worst effect lies behind the thought-methods used in religious faith.

[coder0xff]

What kind of decisions, to be exact, do you mean?

How 'bout the crusades? Witch trials? Terrorism?

Or they have used their logic to come to their conclusion. It's not necessarily intellectual laziness, depending on how someone has come to the decision.

IMHO, logic doesn't lead to religion or superstition without fallacy.

Stop the melodrama. There are so many worse things to be disappointed for in this world. Faith is a really dumb thing to make you apathetic, when there is so much real injustice that deserves your attention.
And the rest is plain malarkey. You really have so much to complain about, what with being a part of the most highly evolved species in Earth's multi-billion year history, and potentially that of the entire galaxy, and yet, it's not good enough for you. Don't kid yourself, at the present, we are something to be marveled at.

Sorry if I seem like I'm exaggerating to you, but that's truly how I feel. Granted, religion isn't the only thing that disgusts me about humanity, and I decided long ago that my efforts to improve it would be futile. For now, I have put off suicide while I consider the possibilities, but it's certainly still on the table.

[DRX]

Coder, I can't help but agree with you. Religion has always done much more harm than good the society. I could go into a pages long rant, but I'll make a quick point instead. You can tell how purely negative the existence of religion is just by its common applications. Those in power use religion to make ridiculous statements, such a recent Congress member stated, "Man cannot end the world, only God." How brutally fucking ignorant, how easily religion is twisted to fit an agenda. Man cannot end the world? Give us another 20 years and I doubt we'll be able to breathe in this atmosphere anymore if we don't make major changes soon. Let alone having enough food for the entirety of the human race. Or the millions of other real problems that religion denies and eventually owns up to. As stated by a Vatican priest in Bill Maher's Religilous, and I am paraphrasing here, "Of course religion and modern science don't match up. Would you expect them to? They were written hundreds of years apart." Religion is outdated, and if it wants to stick around, it needs to fix itself up fast, because it is very quickly becoming a cesspool of hate and stupidity.

[Sacul15]

I don't think that religion is the main cause of most of the world's problems, just a symptom. Faith (not in the sense of trust, but in the sense of accepting knowledge without using reason), mysticism, and a general unappreciation for thought and a tendency towards group mentality can be blamed for many of the world's problems (failed political experiments like communism and fascism, wrong social conceptions like racial superiority, etc).

[cz_squishy]

We respawn, nuff said...

[KILLA-COW]

If you wait to die you never truly live.

[Major Banter]

We respawn, nuff said...

Unless you ragequit life

[1447]

I don't believe in a life after death. I'm not denying it or anything, but I don't see it as very likely. I like the whole concept of being reborn though, but I don't actually believe in it.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

I hate to bring the whole religion argument back up, but as long as you don't hear any counterpoints to your claims, I have wronged you in disagreement.

Faith in the religious sense and the mindset that accompanies it (it's a kind of double-think really) is the reason for a lot of the problems we face today, because faith encourages or nourishes the kind of reasoning where you don't need proof and fall prey to simple slogans and pseudo-logic.

Theoretically, this sounds good, but I have yet to see it in real life. Just because your religious doesn't mean you just believe anything without proof. Even if faith encourages such behavior, I have yet to see such sentiments widespread.
And I believe people fall prey to those slogans because they are morons and hear what they want to hear. I don't think religion is the underlying cause of this.

How 'bout the crusades? Witch trials? Terrorism?

These movements all contradict actual religious doctrine, led by people who manipulate scripture for their own misled cause. You should realize that those who follow the actual rules of Christianity, for example, help countless people. How often have you heard of Christian organizations helping the homeless, the poor, or the starving? I know I have seen much of this. And while these people may think of the benefits in the afterlife, they are still helping other people here, in this life.

Granted, religion isn't the only thing that disgusts me about humanity,

I genuinely feel sorry for you if religion disgusts you.

Religion has always done much more harm than good the society

I'm not even going to touch this one.

Or the millions of other real problems that religion denies and eventually owns up to

Please illuminate the situation, I would very much like to know what problems this monolithic entity you call religion denies.

"Of course religion and modern science don't match up. Would you expect them to? They were written hundreds of years apart." Religion is outdated, and if it wants to stick around, it needs to fix itself up fast, because it is very quickly becoming a cesspool of hate and stupidity.

And I quote,

How brutally fucking ignorant

Of course science and religion can coexist, only ignorant theists deny the truths of science. And as for your rhetoric, I most likely have no words that can coax you from your ideology. How can you argue with someone who takes a multitude of vastly varying belief systems made up of billions of people and turn it into an easily judged, easily observed, and easily panned "cesspool"? You can't.

[Noodles]

Sorry Mr Jigsaw, now you've got me involved.

Faith in the religious sense and the mindset that accompanies it (it's a kind of double-think really) is the reason for a lot of the problems we face today, because faith encourages or nourishes the kind of reasoning where you don't need proof and fall prey to simple slogans and pseudo-logic.

Theoretically, this sounds good, but I have yet to see it in real life. Just because your religious doesn't mean you just believe anything without proof. Even if faith encourages such behavior, I have yet to see such sentiments widespread.
And I believe people fall prey to those slogans because they are morons and hear what they want to hear. I don't think religion is the underlying cause of this.

Yes it does - religion requires faith, as it is simply organised faith. Faith by very definition is without reason. Faith is what you have if you try to substantiate anything without evidence or reason. And it is widespread, we're just too used to it to realise that.

How 'bout the crusades? Witch trials? Terrorism?

These movements all contradict actual religious doctrine, led by people who manipulate scripture for their own misled cause. You should realize that those who follow the actual rules of Christianity, for example, help countless people. How often have you heard of Christian organizations helping the homeless, the poor, or the starving? I know I have seen much of this. And while these people may think of the benefits in the afterlife, they are still helping other people here, in this life.

No, they don't contradict religious doctrine. Read the Old Testament for example. And don't tell me that the Old Testament is undone by the New, that's not true and as long as it is in the Bible it is "Scripture", so it is doctrine.
Helping people in this life? Yes, and no doubt raising their stakes with the helped - I bet they're so grateful they'll even start believing...

Granted, religion isn't the only thing that disgusts me about humanity,

I genuinely feel sorry for you if religion disgusts you.

How can it not disgust you? It is an insult to our ability to think! The idea that people will settle for this claptrap as an explanation instead of going out and finding out themselves is appalling! And downright lazy! A person with faith is simply one who never left the cave! (See Plato).

Religion has always done much more harm than good the society

I'm not even going to touch this one.

Why not? It's supported by a massive amount of evidence. I'd say it's a fair bet that anything you bring to the table wouldn't tip the scales in your favour.

Or the millions of other real problems that religion denies and eventually owns up to

Please illuminate the situation, I would very much like to know what problems this monolithic entity you call religion denies.

This 'monolithic entity' as you put it is actually an extremely apt term. Monolithic, as in old and big and strong, and Entity as in something that isn't tangible.

Also monolith's don't have anything to support them!

Edit: And if you apply a small amount of pressure in the right place they fall flat!

"Of course religion and modern science don't match up. Would you expect them to? They were written hundreds of years apart." Religion is outdated, and if it wants to stick around, it needs to fix itself up fast, because it is very quickly becoming a cesspool of hate and stupidity.

And I quote,

How brutally fucking ignorant

Of course science and religion can coexist, only ignorant theists deny the truths of science. And as for your rhetoric, I most likely have no words that can coax you from your ideology. How can you argue with someone who takes a multitude of vastly varying belief systems made up of billions of people and turn it into an easily judged, easily observed, and easily panned "cesspool"? You can't.

It is my observation (and one shared by Richard Dawkins, not that I try to add weight by mention of the name, but simply state that I am not alone in this) that they cannot coexist. And not as you amazingly say, because religion can tolerate science! Science cannot tolerate religion! Science does not need and would be far better off without religion at all! Religious apologists such as yourself make me laugh with this becuase it sounds like you are trying to make a concession! "Oh alright then, we'll let in a bit of science too, just to make you happy!" No! Fuck that! We don't need you, we don't want you, and when you finally realise you're all barking mad and completely delusional WE will make the concessions and let you in.

(That's not a personal 'you', simply a 'you' aimed at everyone who is religious or a religious apologist).

[Dionysos]

First off, I completely agree with noodles (yummi), and thx for posting everyone.

I hate to bring the whole religion argument back up, but as long as you don't hear any counterpoints to your claims, I have wronged you in disagreement.

Faith in the religious sense and the mindset that accompanies it (it's a kind of double-think really) is the reason for a lot of the problems we face today, because faith encourages or nourishes the kind of reasoning where you don't need proof and fall prey to simple slogans and pseudo-logic.

Theoretically, this sounds good, but I have yet to see it in real life. Just because your religious doesn't mean you just believe anything without proof. Even if faith encourages such behavior, I have yet to see such sentiments widespread.
And I believe people fall prey to those slogans because they are morons and hear what they want to hear. I don't think religion is the underlying cause of this.

If you are religious, you are already practicing that kind of thinking, and you are more prone to apply it to other matters. Yes, people who fall prey to those slogans are morons, but if morons are taught to apply logic rigorously and conditioned not to "double-think" but to question, to teach them how to use logical "crutches" to make up their mind, that would definitely help I think. Religion might not be a cause, but it certainly doesn't help things and one could argue it worsens things by making that way of thinking acceptable.

Today, many things are simply believed and many people don't even think about asking for proof. This is especially true regarding mass media and widely believed "facts". Dogma is something encouraged by religion and religious faith.

[whiffen]

Nice one noodles.

The idea of religion might sound good but you really don't need to teach such ridiculous story's in order for people to know right from wrong.

Why not just talk to them like normal and give them real reasons as to why you shouldn't do some things, especially when most of these things come natural. Frankly I would think having situations you can base and witness off real life would make you want to do more than being told to not do something because a giant fairy in the sky will be upset with you.

Many things in the Bible are awful anyway. Stone disobedient children to death? Kill homosexuals? These things are awful.

Religion can teach science yeah, but why not just teach science? Why do you need the religion part added? Something that is not scientific.

And even then, this god puts us here and gives us no evidence of himself and by being a rational person and saying,"Well there must be no god since we have no evidence to base it off of." And for being rational god sends you to hell for all eternity. I'm sorry but this god sounds like a real dick.

He can go fuck himself for all the horrible things he teaches. I'm not going to bend over and suck his cock just to get into heaven because I'm not going to conform to the awful things that can come from religion. What a discussing injustice you cause to the world for your own selfish benefits.

Please tell me why it is good to believe rather then to know? There Is not one situation I can think of where this would come in handy.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

~Epicurus

I'm sorry if I seem raged, but I really dislike religion. And I don't see why people can take out parts of the bible and ignore them. If some parts are bad by today's standards why can you still keep the rest? You cant just pick and choose what parts you want to believe :/

[coder0xff]

Wow. I was about to continue the debate, but it looks like I'm too late.

Some great points all of you. I encourage you, however, to try to stay calm. A resolute and balanced philosopher will have more success in argument. You attract more bees with honey and all that.

Have you ever seen a Christian try to convert someone by badgering? It's so funny.

----------------------Edit:
Actually, I do have a little something to add. Being charitable and being religious aren't mutually exclusive. Religious groups who are charitable are an example of religious people doing good things, but that doesn't mean it's all they do. And many other organizations are charitable. Truly charitable, without hopes of anything in return, including additional patronage or entrance into heaven. As for what doctrine does or does not say - many of the religious people in the world today that are making these "negative choices" are people who are incapable of reading scripture themselves. Their ignorance is exploited and they are manipulated into doing detestable things. Though it is not religion in itself that causes their behavior, it is the vessel. This is also an obvious example of where ignorance and religion are related. Others may not be so obvious. Even American soldiers are manipulated using faith. I've experienced it myself everywhere I've gone. I cannot attend a change of command ceremony (which is typically mandatory) without waiting silently while the units Chaplin performs an invocation (a prayer). And yes, it disturbs me every time. Many soldiers believe that god wants them to destroy the enemy. Bush would even have you think that god endorses his choices, regardless of whether they were wrong or right.

Edit: Oh, and one more thing. That image above didn't appear right when I clicked to zoom. So for convenience:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8628/1246170615838.gif