What is your religion/belief?

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What is your religion/belief?

Christian
8
10%
Catholic
3
4%
Judaism
1
1%
Buddhism
0
No votes
Muslim
3
4%
Free-Thinker
4
5%
Agnostic
9
12%
Atheist
37
48%
I hate it all
4
5%
No preference
3
4%
Other
5
6%
 
Total votes : 77

Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Dionysos on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:03 pm

So in other words, each side says the other is intolerant.

Regarding the pledge, I think it's quite frankly silly to assume that a child should pledge anything at all, especially allegiance to a country. Children are impressionable and way too young to be expected to have an independent informed opinion about whether or not they should pledge allegiance to a country. You can't hold them to that pledge, they can't be expected to understand it fully, so what's the point? Indoctrination? Whether or not you should love your country is another thing entirely and has nothing to do with it.

Separation of church and state means exactly that: the church and state are separated, religion is a private matter. (Btw, separation FROM church and state doesn't say anything about the relationship between church and state, but rather that church and state are both separated from something else) The point of that separation is that one religion does not influence the state and how it treats people/operates. It's simply a principle which is either followed through or not. It's not about removing god from every day life but religious rites from state institutions, which is an entirely different thing. But yea, if you're not forced to say under god or the pledge at all, strictly speaking there's no problem.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby source-maps on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:42 pm

didn't want to read everything, just wanna say
I find it delusional, I know it's offending but it's just what I think
it doesn't mean I wouldn't like you or treat you any other way :(

edit: isn't that what tolerance is about? I don't like it.. and I rather would see a world without it
but because the world does not revolve around me, people should be free to believe what they want
or is that making things sound worse?
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby MayheM on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:18 pm

The FROM is more a reflection of its relationship toward church, I understand it really does not state it clearly. Perhaps "Separation From Church In State". But I understand where you are coming from.

I just hold great respect for tradition. While you are correct that children can not be held to the pledge I believe it is a constant reminder of what this country is supposed to stand for. It reinforces the idea that all people are entitled to liberty and justice. Sure they may not understand it when they are young, but it will shape they way they look at the world later. Sure you can say this is indoctrination, but what is wrong with teaching kids good values? Sure if the country stood for the eradication of an entire race IE "Nazi Germany" than yes I would have issues with it. As would I have issues with the pledge if it said slavery was right. But getting kids to remember what this country was founded on is not a bad thing. What has become of our Republic is something entirely different. Maybe if people still said the pledge they would be able to see how very wrong our country has become.

As for the intolerance, yes to some extent both sides are intolerant. Which is my point exactly. Both sides need to be more respectful of the others beliefs. I feel I have done and good job in doing that. As have others who have posted. Some on the other hand have been, lets say, less than respectful.

@ source-maps, There is a saying that I am not sure if it is universal, or just here in the US. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't s say anything at all." You are free to believe that we are delusional for believing in God, however it is best, for the sake of being respectful, to keep your opinions about someone else's beliefs to yourself. It will always be seen as an attack and will in all likelihood not end in a rational discussion. Just some friendly advice...
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby source-maps on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:25 pm

it's universal, but yeah.. maybe you are right.
tho, as an adult you should be able to deal with it right.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby MayheM on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:38 pm

I think I have dealt with it pretty well. I just think it is a good way to be in general no matter the age. I live in a city where most people disagree with my beliefs. However, I have many friends because I can voice my opinions and beliefs in a way that does not insult others and what they believe in. When you insult people, knowingly or not, people will often tune you out and disregard what you say. We can all learn a lot from each other and should hear what everyone has to say. It is far easier to do that when the person talking is not spitting in your face...
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby source-maps on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:48 pm

MayheM wrote:I think I have dealt with it pretty well. I just think it is a good way to be in general no matter the age. I live in a city where most people disagree with my beliefs. However, I have many friends because I can voice my opinions and beliefs in a way that does not insult others and what they believe in. When you insult people, knowingly or not, people will often tune you out and disregard what you say. We can all learn a lot from each other and should hear what everyone has to say. It is far easier to do that when the person talking is not spitting in your face...


well, the truth might be insulting to some. just learn to accept it.
this was my last post in this thread, because don't want to get everyone against me.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Smurftyours on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:56 pm

Simpletool wrote:Do you see the issue with basing your perception of an entire group of people on your own little bit anecdotal experience? I mean when you say things like "Atheists just automatically assume that every single religious person is brainwashed to the point of ignoring reality." and "Atheists basically say your fucking wrong and that your stupid for having personal beliefs." people will assume you're incredibly ignorant.


This is my own experiences and has nothing to do with the entire whole of Atheism. The only Atheists I have met in real life have acted this way, so therefore I will base some of my arguments on how I have seen some real Atheists act. Your obviously missing the parts where I said or implied that this was with Atheists that I have met personally. Obviously not all Atheists act this way, some or many might even be completely respectable of other religions.

Simpletool wrote:Atheism isn't a religion, there exists no central governing body of atheism, there is no manual that lays out the Dos & Don'ts of atheism. It is simply put, a choice to live without any belief in a god. It is the absence of religion in a person's life that defines them as atheist or agnostic. Point me to evidence that proves atheists are making large and well organized attempts to aggressively proselytize.


If you want to call them a non organized group of people who have no beliefs, then thats probably a more correct way to put it. As for them trying to convert people, I'm once again basing my writings off of my experiences with Atheists in real life. I am not saying they all act this way.

Simpletool wrote:Aaaaaand here we have it, the central tenet of your argument. Your opinion is a belief formed by extremely limited experiences and knowledge, and should not be regarded as fact or truth in argument. You have every right to form and hold your own opinions, but don't expect anyone to take your seriously if you can't defend them rationally and with evidence. Repeating an opinion over and over again does not make it truth.


You missed the point completely. I am not saying its the truth, I am saying its the truth in my opinion.

Simpletool wrote: don't expect anyone to take your seriously if you can't defend them rationally and with evidence.


Same could be said for your opinion since theres no way to prove if there is a God or not.

Also good job on picking apart my statement to make me look ignorant. I'm 15 so it probably wasn't even that hard in the first place.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Riven on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:44 am

Oh boy, I finally made it to the 9th page!

I just got through diligently reading the entire thread in order to make an informed comment as I can't wait to learn more about this topic! There have been quite a few informed well-thought-out opinions in this thread that I can't help but admire. Clearly a lot of people here care dearly about this subject in one form or another.

What do I want to say? -Well there were a few inconsistencies in terminology I observed people refer to that I believe would be a benefit to the discussion if we clarified them and which definitions they are referring to.

I would like to clarify (in order of personal importance [1st=most imp.]):

-What is science?

-What is faith?

-What is a fact?

-What is a truth?

-What is a theory?

Why I'm posting: Simply put: I care about what's true. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not. Truth is independent of what I believe, it does not matter whether I believe it or even acknowledge it. I may be arrogant in assuming everyone agrees with that previous sentence? If not, please inform me if you may.

I am also posting because I think truth matters regardless of your outlook and/or context on/to it. Also, I think knowing the truth can only ever be beneficial and never degrading directly. I may be SUPER arrogant in assuming everyone agrees with THAT previous sentence too? I suppose I'll find out! :-D

Quick definitions and agreements:

-Science is (in relevance to this discussion): The systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. It is also a way of thinking; it is a way of skeptically interrogating the world around you. If you do not agree with this, or if you are operating under a different definition, please enlighten me! Also, don't take my word for it, cross-reference me if you so delight. -And please realize, I am genuinely interested in these possible responses; I am not being pretentious.

-Faith is (in relevance to this discussion): A strong or unshakable belief in something, especially without proof or evidence. There are many other definitions to "faith", but I think this is the assumed definition we are referring to in this discussion? I assume we are talking about 'major' faith? -The kind that gives semblance to your world view? Not faith in your friends to show up for your party, etc...

-A fact is a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true. Now of course, experience may relate to personal experience, so this term in relation to this discussion would require a modifier, no? Shall we refer to them as universal facts? That if it is based on an experience, this experience must be shared by all participants and arrive at the same unbiased measurement for it to remain a fact. Now if we admit there are types of facts, then there must be types of truths too?

-A truth (in relevance to this discussion) is a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like. Now I must commend stoopdapoop for linking the "Criteria of truth" article on Wikipedia, that was very informative and relevant! This is what we're all after right? And whether you're interested in it or not, are you still not subject to it?

-And finally, a theory is (in relevance to this discussion) a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena; more importantly though, the scientific definition for a theory states it must make testable predictions about physical and material phenomena.

New theories replace old theories only if they are able to explain the new unexplainable phenomena while still being able to explain everything the old theory already explained. This is the advantage with science: it is ever growing, and always changing with new information illuminating the edge of the known against that which is unknown. For this is why I love science; it is as far as I know the best tool we have for discovering our universe and the world around us as it really is. It may not be the best system, but it is the best we have for as much as we know.

Science is not biased, and it has no nationality; (example: there is no such thing as Japanese science), it's universal. The same which is true for the Japanese in that example is true for everyone everywhere. Science sponsors skeptical questioning on a regular basis; nothing is sound fact. Let me explain...

A Disclaimer about Science:

One disclaimer that should be a given about science is: Everything we know through science is only ever 99% true. What does that mean? We do not know everything, therefore we cannot ever be 100% correct when we say things are true or not. Example: Gravity is true as far as we know in the observed universe. We do not know, but it MAY not be true at the center of a black hole. We do not know what happens at the center of one, but that does not change the theory of gravity.....yet. Once we get new information about the ongoings of a black hole, our definition of gravity may change....-or not. "We do not know" is an acceptable answer in science. For the unknown is simply that: unknown.

You may reply with ideas to try and explain the unknown, but without evidence and facts, those ideas can never be anything more than ideas. Your idea may elevate to a hypothesis if it can be tested. And if tested enough with the same conclusion, then that hypothesis may elevate to a new theory if it can predict something we haven't observed or discovered yet.

An example of an idea-turned hypothesis-turned theory: Germ Theory. It was a hypothesis that was used to predict the explanation of infant deaths at birth, and 20 years later, they were able to actually apply it to other fields of science where those predictions came true. Now we know all about germs and bacteria, and you don't have to take anyone's word for it, you can go look at it yourself and observe the same conclusion that was hypothesized and then theorized so long ago.

That same exact science is what powers your computer, airplanes, evolution and the big bang theory just to name a few.

I believe in science because of all this. As far as I know the idea of God/gods cannot be tested independently yet and therefore still remains only an idea along with its implications. Some ideas are more important than others, and I use something like science to evaluate them critically and efficiently to criticize them before attempting to adopt them into my world view/understanding of things. So in regards to the idea of God/gods, I have yet to see evidence of It/them that hasn't already been explained with already established scientific theories. If their explanation lies in the unknown or fields of pseudoscience only, then my default position to It/their existence will be to say, in all efforts of man, nothing has given indisputable evidence toward Its/their validity that I must assume until it comes that it does not exist yet, but I can only ever be 99% sure because again, I do not know everything, and neither does science, so I will live my life as if they do not exist until that information comes to change it, if ever.

Therefore, you could call me an A-deist. Certainly an A-theist. Just as I would imagine most people are A-goblinists, or A-flat Earthists. These positions as I am typing this are as known to me currently default positions in science, and supported by genuine skeptical intrigue and observation about the known universe.

/my beliefs and 2 cents.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby MayheM on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 am

Gotta say Riven, that was a great read... Well thought out and a fair assessment of both the thread and your view of said topic. We have similar views of many things, The main difference is that while you choose to assume a higher power does not exist, I choose to believe one does. But you are right, It can not be proven either way. For me, that's what my faith is for...
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Riven on Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:41 am

Thank you for the kind comments. I would have never been able to come up with such a response if it weren't for honest discussions like these to help get me thinking about it and learning more about myself and the world. -And for that, I am glad you took the time to read through it; I'm afraid the wall of text will off-put many stumblers to this great thread.

I understand your position and respect it. However, I would like to make clear your stance on what it means to assume something. In my case, you summarized what my attitude towards the idea of God/gods was/were.

I agree that it is a choice, but I do not agree that how we are approaching it is an assumption just because it cannot be proven or disproven. Undeniable proof accounts for a lot of science, but it is not everything. Lack of evidence, just like evidence is a form of evidence.

To assume something by definition means to take for granted or without proof; suppose, postulate or posit.

Therefore, I would argue my position about the existence of God/gods is/are not an assumption. It is however a choice siding with known independent observations regarding an idea. Those observations as far as I know talk about the lack of unbiased publicly definable and observable evidence. The same could be said for the idea of dragons, the Tooth Fairy, end of the world in 2012, dowsing rods, Ouija boards, Astrology, the Soul, and the afterlife (independent of that of the idea of God/gods). I'm sure I've stepped on somebody's toes here in that short list, but I think it puts into perspective the level of questionable ideas still floating about in the 21st century that rely on pseudo science and arguable ignorance of science in general to make sense to someone who is genuinely concerned with what's known to be true. People may make assumptions, but science only makes predictions.

I fear I may be appearing as arrogant to some already, but in my understanding, arrogance is relative but always based on the subject matter. In other words, it is not the claims that are arrogant, only the person behind them. I'm trying to offer my position as unbiased as I can while still positing that it is only one position out of a sea of many unequal ones. I swerve from that un-biasness when I say I believe whole heartedly that my position is a more accurate AND precise investigation about the known universe based on what we already know to be probably true. And that is where I arrive from your comment. :D

Thanks for the speedy feedback!
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Ashfall_2008 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:10 pm

Wow.. this discussion moved on fast...

I think you guys really need to seperate out religion from god too.

Belief in god is misguided but harmless in most cases.

It's religions that seem silly and dangerous to me.

Catholic Dogma: This wafer is the actual flesh of Jesus of Nazereth! Errr OK? He was one crispy dude!

All over the world we have people murdering each other and tearing millions of lives apart supposedly over a dissagreement about how the almighty wants you to kiss his butt.

Man, that's insanity if ever I heard it.

Also..

If all the major religions are actively allowed to recruit (and they do) then why can't the Athiests? I see no problem with trying to turn someone to my belief in the fact that god does not exist. I don't have to prove it any more than the religions have to prove there is a god to recruit.

Also...

I've seen people say that others beliefs are sacred and should not be challenged therefore religion is somehow legitmate.

Let's look at a different example. If I went about proclaiming Santa Claus to be real at the age of 25 I would be mocked by others of similar age. They would brand me as a fool. Why..?

Because the majority of people over the age of 10 years old know full well that Santa Claus is a myth. A harmless one (possibly not given the pressure on parents to deliver) but none the less a myth.

So because the vast majority don't believe (note there's no catagorical proof that he doesn't exist) in Santa it's generally accepted to be a falsehood.

So the only thing that adds any weight to the collective belief in the existence of a god is the fact that a large amount of humans still hold that belief to be true. That's it. Nothing more...

The real zinger of a question is...

If no one else in the world believed in god, would you still believe in it?
Really think about that one!

Would you come to these conclusions and ideas on your own?

Also..

I'd be interested to hear how people can subscribe to Christianity and yet still believe in evolution. How do you seperate truth from fiction in the bible?
If you don't believe in the Garden Of Eden and the creationists story then why believe anything else in the bible? Why believe that Jesus was nothing more than a cool dude who had some groovy ideas that were beyond his time? or that he existed at all for that matter?

Can you pick and choose what you want to believe from a religious text?

Finally...

A good scientist would never tell you something is a fact. It's simply what is known at this time. We have tested this to buggery and tried to disprove in every way possible and we can't... so for right now this is what we consider to be true.
All science should be caveated with a disclaimer that says "this may be proved false in future but for right now all the evidence points to this being true and other theories being false".

Christian Science takes a different approach. Rather than trying to disprove god they try to find evidence that god exists. This is not science at all and they seem to only have taken the name simply to add legitimacy to their efforts.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Plague on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:50 pm

And yet God or (Insert Supreme being(s)) could have created Science.

Its a debate on who/what created us.
But We have given ourselves an impossible creator who makes everything possible.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Smurftyours on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:24 pm

Ashfall_2008 wrote:or that he existed at all for that matter?

Even from a historical stand point he is real.


Catholics think differently about how we interpret our bible compared to other religion. So no, we don't take everything in our bible in a literalist sense, its mean't to be interpreted in a literal sense. This basically means we interpret the meaning but don't ignore the context of the reading. A literalist sense is when you take each and every word at face value for the meaning of what you are reading. A lot of stuff in it is historically correct though so there is quite a bit of truth to the scriptures in it. Basically watch the video since it explains it better then I do. This is also how I feel about the bible and what should be learned from it.

I love how Roman Catholics get sorted into the same bin as the christens. We are pretty different religions.
Last edited by Smurftyours on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby Ashfall_2008 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:40 pm

Dude... sorry but Roman Catholics are Christians...

They believe in Christ and that he was the son of god... ergo... christian.

It's just a different church. Like Baptists or Evangelicals.
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Re: What is your religion/belief?

Postby MNM on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 pm

Catholics are one of the main groups of Christians you know, along with protestants. You don't have your own religion going on.
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