Coders: Prepping for an industry job

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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby Sauce on Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:03 am

nice thread. Favourite'd.

I promise as soon as I get over this damn cold I'm gonna start my portfolio (yes thats right programmers can have portfolios!)
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby SamV522 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:58 am

Where would you reccomend someone in highschool (year 10-11) To apply if they wanted a job in the computing industry?
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby ChopperDave on Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:20 am

You'll need to clarify.

You mean colleges? Or are you looking to get a job right out of high school?
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby SamV522 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:50 pm

ChopperDave wrote:You'll need to clarify.

You mean colleges? Or are you looking to get a job right out of high school?


I meant as in where would a good place to start be for someone in year 10/11?
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby punky on Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:53 pm

SamV522 wrote:
ChopperDave wrote:You'll need to clarify.

You mean colleges? Or are you looking to get a job right out of high school?


I meant as in where would a good place to start be for someone in year 10/11?

Your answers sure come by ChopperDave on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am late... :p
by ChopperDave on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby ChopperDave on Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:44 pm

I meant as in where would a good place to start be for someone in year 10/11?


Up to you. You can teach yourself programming or go to college/uni for it. Whatever your preferred method of learning is.

Updated the bottom of the OP with a link on making a game programming portfolio.
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby blackdeath on Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:13 am

I have a few bits to throw in here (apologies for repeats from OP). This is mostly focused from the interviewer perspective.

(Background: I started coding in elementary school, did math and politics in college, and got a job coding out of undergrad at a very large aerospace company where I've been for the past... almost 6 years... I've also interviewed about 30 people for jobs so I've seen both sides... I'm also drunk but like that's important)







1) The main thing to realize is that getting your first major job is a two-way street. By that I mean that, yes, you are being interviewed, but you are also interviewing in return with your responses, queries, etc. It is also a two-way street because while said company will be paying you, and you will be working for that pay, they are also putting a substantial investment in you.

1a) This investment is far larger than your salary: healthcare, vacation, sick days, teaching you work stuff, teaching you computer stuff, providing your work environment and equipment, retirement, 401ks, infrastructure, etc. In addition, this cost is usually high enough that it is abnormal for your employer to fire you just for the fuck of it as they then have to make up all that extra cost (in addition to being careful of discrimination suits, unfair employment practices, etc.). You're in a "professional" job.

1b) What this means is that you have to show your employer some things:

- If you are asked what you'd do to complete a project that was behind cause your co-workers didn't understand things, you don't just say "i'd do whatever is necessary", you say "well i'd work as necessary to complete the project on deadline but i'd also make sure that i taught my co-workers as much as possible so they can keep up in the future and learn as much as they can." No one is paying you salary, benefits, and covering your costs just so you can be yourself---you HAVE to work as a team. Not because that's the moral thing to do but because that is simply cost effective. Chances are they are no looking to hire you for 1 year but for 5-10 so you have to convince them the long-term benefits are worth it and no one wants someone who isn't going to help the rest of the people (who are also drawing salary, benefits, and costs).

- Likewise, if someone asks what you want to do, don't be an idiot and say "oh, well, i really love xyz i'd like to start my own business in xyz in a few years." FUCK. WHY ARE YOU EVEN WASTING MY TIME. Lie if you have to, just don't say something like that. I'm not going to hire someone who is going to ditch me in a couple years and I am sure as hell not going to hire someone who's STUPID enough to say such a thing on top of it. I have denied people jobs just for this.

- If you don't know the answer to a question, THAT'S OK. I cannot stress this enough, as, afterall, most things in the "real world" are not known. I can't tell you how many times I've had problems and have had to pull in 10 or 20 experts to figure it out and, when we all get together, no one really knows! That's how it works, you figure it out. What's far more important is how you would go about solving a problem you didn't know. Work through it out loud. Explain how you would "debug" a problem, your likely suspicions, where'd you focus, what the key points would be. Explain what type of knowledge you'd need and where you'd turn for that information (at least to start! you don't have to know everything!).

This brilliant mathematician (like, genius level) always told me this story about how he'd be vetting a PhD thesis and ask them, completely unrelated to their thesis, "so how many gas stations are there in the US?" they'd be flumoxed and pissed off and dismiss him, not realizing what he wanted was to see how'd they react: "well, i have no idea, but i guess if you took the miles of highways, number of cars, miles per car per year, average mileage, etc., you could probably estimate x stations.... who knows but that's how i'd start." that's all he was looking for, not an answer, but a method.

2) Watch what you say in an interview. By this I mean don't run your mouth. Pay attention to body language! There is nothing worse than interviewing someone who just won't shut up. If you are in doubt, you can PAUSE. ASK A QUESTION. CLAIRIFY THAT SHIT. There is no shame in saying "wait, I'm not sure if I'm running my mouth or if that makes any sense" and seeing what they say. People do this every damn day in the "real world."

2a) Likewise, if you feel like you're rambling off the point, IT IS OK to ask "wait, I'm not sure if I am addressing your point." This is a good sign that the interviewer is aware that they are trying to answer the question. ALWAYS ANSWER THE QUESTION AT HAND, even if all you have to say is you don't know or you have to tease more info out of the interviewer. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN BEING ASKED A QUESTION AND NOT EVEN ANSWERING IT. Do you think I just ask these questions for the fuck of it? There are 3 people here interviewing you, do you really think we're asking these questions for an hour, at an internal rate of $150*3, just for grins? This, too, will get you denied from a job, even if you know the answer or don't know the answer.

3) Wear proper clothes and watch your body language. If you're a woman, don't show tits. Trust me, we can see them. Wear a skirt, too, even if its the only time you ever will. If you're a man, wear a suit, jackass (and, yes, this means a tie, belt, dress shoes, etc). I don't care if it's a shitty $50 suit, that's not important, and no one is going to deny you a job because you can't afford a $500 suit (we're gonna pay you enough that you will be able to afford one one day anyway). You are going to be interviewed for 1 hr, 4 hours, 2 days, MAX. If you can't dress respectable just for that I kind of wonder what your problem is. And, don't worry, it's programming, chances are you will be able to dress however when you get the job, but show some respect, would you? I'm about to put your kids through college for fucks sake.

Oh, and don't click your pen for an hour. Don't tap your foot incessantly. Don't pick your fingernails or your nose. Don't tap your hands on the desk. I can understand if that happens a bit, after all, we KNOW you are under stress and your stress reactions are going to come out, just don't do it through the whole godamn interview. We'll just assume you're nuts.

4) Watch your sense of humor. By this I not only mean the obvious faults like profane jokes, inappropriate jokes, etc., I also mean you should be aware that it's possible some people interviewing you just don't have your sense of humor. Maybe they don't LIKE sarcasm---after all, they might just interpret that as you being a dick. This doesn't mean not to be funny or witty or to be a personable person, just be careful not to go too far.

5) Again, if you don't know an answer, or aren't sure entirely, spell it out and feel free to talk it through. If I ask you what IDE/Developing Environments you are familiar with, don't just say Visual Studio and leave it at that. Tell me you usually use Visual Studio but you are aware of Eclipse, emacs/vi/command line, etc. etc.. I interviewed someone awhile ago and we asked them if they were familiar with .NET developing environments and all he could say was "well, i use java + eclipse." WTF kind of answer is that. This applies to all developing environments, languages, operating systems, network stacks, etc. YOU DON'T HAVE TO KNOW EVERYTHING 100% JUST TELL ME SOMETHING SO I CAN FIGURE OUT IF YOU'RE AN IDIOT OR NOT.

6) You may or not be asked to do technical work on a white-board. You should investigate this ahead of time. ASK YOUR LIASON/HR WHATEVER. There is no shame in asking what is required of the interview, and, in fact, this actually shows some intelligence. I didn't actually have to work through algorithms and show the O() time of an algorithm and explain what INT 13 is, but you MAY. CHECK AHEAD OF TIME AND STUDY IF NECESSARY.

7) No matter what remember that despite all the focus on you that this actually has little to do with you. It has much more to do with the team you are going to be working with, the jobs you will be doing, the life of the company, etc. The people that are interviewing you, chances are, are going to be WORKING WITH YOU EVERY DAY. Be respectful and realize you are only 1 part of the picture.

8) Ask questions! I hate it when I am the only one asking questions. Show me you are interested. Show me this isn't the only job you could possibly get. Make me think you aren't 100% sure of what would be required of you or if you'd be a good fit. Show me other people want you (and do this subtly else I'll think you're a dick, but, seriously, ask questions). Be interested.

9) re: specialities. We can teach you specialties, trust me. I'm interested in your specialties, I really am. But I am also far more concerned about handling any task we throw at you and you being able to figure it out. YOU ARE GOING TO SPEND 1-2 YEARS just learning the ropes, ok? That's how it works. I am much more concerned about your ability to learn than what you already know, now matter how awesome it is.

10) Oh, and be calm. It's a two-way street. This is just as much about me figuring out you as you figuring out about me. If you've got the interview, you're already doing better than 80-90% of the other people that applied so JUST RELAX.





Ok, that's all I've got for now; that was exhausting.
Last edited by blackdeath on Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby blackdeath on Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:30 am

SamV522 wrote:Where would you reccomend someone in highschool (year 10-11) To apply if they wanted a job in the computing industry?


Well, it depends, but if you want the "ideal" method:

a. max the AP CS test. try to max the AP Calc test (not just cause but cause if you go to undergrad you can skip that shit if you max it and save yourself a year).
b. write some applications on your own. keep the source on backup. get as involved as absolutely possible in HANDS-ON work. DEVELOP A PORTFOLIO.
c. go to undergrad, best you can. this may be CS or not, it depends on how good you are, but in all honesty, if you can't crack a Unix server, write a client/server app in C, and write your own interpreter (or equivilent, depending on what you want to do) by the time you are ending your freshman or sophomore year in college you really should major in CS. some pull it off without going to undergrad but... with knowing nothing about you you have to realize this is 2%, of which half are mostly just lucky.
d. get an internship, as early as possible. in anything. trust me, anything. it doesn't have to be in what you want to do, its just an internship. get several. the "real world" loves internships because this shows you have an understanding in how to deal with people and organizations which is what most of your job will be anyway.
e. figure out programming, hardware, and networks. you can't do shit without at least a basic understanding in all 3.
f. learn how to DEBUG. this will be 50%-80% of your entire (coding) life, so get good at it :D





otherwise... i dunno. what do you want to do with computers?
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Re: Coders: Prepping for an industry job

Postby stoopdapoop on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:13 am

What a fucking incredible thread.

also, if anyone tries to chastise me for for bumping a several-year-old thread, I'll say something mean to them.
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