The Contract

Discuss modifications and also recruit team members.

Re: The Contract

Postby Major Banter on Sat May 18, 2013 12:03 pm

Jeeves wrote:Deliberately taking quotes out of context is nice an' all, but In all seriousness, we chuckle quietly; and wish them well.

Well, as a marketing lead he needs to be aware that's all media outlets and the common reader will do. Nobody ever quotes a body of text in a PCGamer article, so every word and phrase needs to be very carefully said. Bad PR results in some serious disasters just because of some Redditor picking up on the wrong thing in an otherwise unimportant sentence - see Dear Esther, Kerbal Space Program etc.

Stormy and I had a discussion about this guy last night, and I think a lot of my own personal frustration regarding these guys is because I see myself in them, several years ago. I want to shake them and tell them that their dreams are incredibly hard to make, that it's fantastic to have these ideas but putting them together is the hardest thing they will ever do, and it is NEVER about the money - we build because we want to, because we can. He has a long, brutal road ahead of him that the odds are truly stacked against.

I admire his optimism, but I also think he's an idiot, and good luck to him. He's going to need it. Let him prove me wrong.
ImageImageImage
Major Banter
Veteran
Veteran
 
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:52 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Contract

Postby Jeeves on Sat May 18, 2013 4:28 pm

Here's something from that recruitment page I found perplexing
Dean wrote: Massive task, not a stealth based engine. Well, I disagree with that. The HL2 AI scripting is amazing, it also allows you to control AI states, Squads and ‘Wake’ functions allowing triggering radio chatter. On top of this, it allows you to spawn AI as needed and also allows you to control where AI can go and how they can react. What else do we need?


Dean wrote: What else do we need?


... :smt021 :smt042 .

Banter wrote:I admire his optimism, but I also think he's an idiot, and good luck to him. He's going to need it. Let him prove me wrong.


Would've expected someone with a computer science degree to be a bit more clued up on the limitations of a scripting language. Seems naïve to think that he wont have to delve into the AI code; why would the original script and codebase remain adequate when he's planning on implementing
evolving AI
. This idea pales in comparison with his next, not in the least bit ambitious plan to add real-time lighting and shadows; by presumably recoding the renderer?. So what happens to the shadow mapping?, doesn't this mean he'll also have to modify hammer and screw around with the BSP code as well?.

Has computer science degree, ignorant of the engine.

:D
Undue Punishment : 'An experimental FP Fighting game with stealth elements. ' -- TBD
Torn : 'A First Person RTS ' -- In Development as of 03/2014
Jeeves
Regular
Regular
 
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: The Contract

Postby ErikKiller on Sat May 18, 2013 7:40 pm

Seems like a classical case of too much ideas vs too little skill. A common plague among the beginner mappers...
Image
Image
First rodeo? Use the Source SDK Documentation for reference!
User avatar
ErikKiller
May Contain Skills
May Contain Skills
 
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Estonia

Re: The Contract

Postby Major Banter on Sat May 18, 2013 9:52 pm

Jeeves, you've identified what I found the most perplexing about the whole thing - the fact that the HL2 AI is built for bog standard, face to face combat. They're adaptive and reasonably clever, but have absolutely no stealth mechanics to build off of. The guy's AI would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, not adapted or tweaked.

We've all tried stealth in Hammer. It's shit and doesn't work. Has he even done any preliminary tests?
ImageImageImage
Major Banter
Veteran
Veteran
 
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:52 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Contract

Postby Black_Stormy on Sat May 18, 2013 10:33 pm

He hasn't even done any preliminary mods. Actually i saw on my steam feed the other day that an ideas guy i used to work with had made some progress on a mod he pitched to me just after i figured out he was an ideas guy. I was amazed to see progress, even if it has been like a year and a half. Even if it was hardly anything. Maybe some ideas guys can pull through.
User avatar
Black_Stormy
May Contain Skills
May Contain Skills
 
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:03 am
Location: Cairns, QLD, AUS

Re: The Contract

Postby stoopdapoop on Sat May 18, 2013 11:05 pm

I'm actually going to chime in, in defense of "Dean". Source's AI is perfectly fine for stealth based gameplay, I don't know what kind qualities you guys think an "AI system" needs in order to support this kind of gameplay, but in reality it doesn't take very much. 99% of the heavy lifting is already done for us by the engine (And this is coming from someone who hates working with source, mind you). It handles pathfinding and patrol routes, task scheduling, prioritization, interrupts, and even has a simple to use system that allows agents to have short and long term memory. What else do you need?

and for those of us with a computer science degree, it doesn't take long to spot a finite state machine like the ones that run source's AI. It would probably take an afternoon for a coder experienced with source get something up and running (maybe two afternoons for someone without source-specific experience). Say, a metrocop that that gets alerted when he hears the player (already implemented), then decides to investigate where the noise came from (already implemented), if he doesn't find anything after a second he'll go back to his relaxed state and continue his patrol (already implemented). You could can sample the lighting at any point by asking the ambient lighting system, then modify the length of the "detection" rays being cast from the metro-cop's eyes by the sampled brightness of the point at the center of the player's bounding box (or the average of the corners if you want to be fancy.)

The more interesting behavior would be handling the transition between "SEEN_BADGUY" and "RELAX", but that's more of a design problem than a technical one.

I agree with all of you that these are full of hot hair, but the stuff he's saying about the AI checks out.
I'm Brown
Image
User avatar
stoopdapoop
Veteran
Veteran
 
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: The Contract

Postby Major Banter on Sat May 18, 2013 11:57 pm

You're the expert Stoop, and you know signficantly better than me, that's for sure. Fair enough.
ImageImageImage
Major Banter
Veteran
Veteran
 
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:52 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Contract

Postby Black_Stormy on Sun May 19, 2013 1:32 am

I was hoping one of you comp sci dudes would stop past. I'm not too sure about the coding stuff but he certainly doesn't sound like a graduate computer scientist. I assumed you would be pretty familiar with all branches of C once you've done a degree. I would hate to think he's lying to his team on top of wasting their time.

Also plague, trying and failing is fine when you're a total noob and need to learn but that egyptian modeller bro is clearly not a noob. His time is better spent on something that will give him some sort of return, not necessarily financial, but certainly not another 9 months of his hard work down the drain. I guess I relate to him in that respect and that's why this has really got up my nose.

I have had a particularly large amount of run-ins with ideas guys to the point that I refuse to sign onto mod teams anymore. If they aren't clearly skilled and dedicated, and if they can't clearly make it to release regardless of my help I don't want to commit to them. A team that is on top of their game is a team that is going to provide the most room for improvement. Call me jaded and selfish but FUCK ideas guys.

On the other hand, it's no fault of their own, they're just ultra naive. The part where it becomes their fault is when they ignore clearly good advice. Which I guess this guy hasn't yet - I'm just finding a scapegoat to aim all my ideas guy rage at.
User avatar
Black_Stormy
May Contain Skills
May Contain Skills
 
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:03 am
Location: Cairns, QLD, AUS

Re: The Contract

Postby MrTwoVideoCards on Sun May 19, 2013 9:18 am

I agree with stoop. Also why are we attacking this guy? If he wants to go and make a game, let him, regardless of if he fails at it or not. Anyone thinking of joining can tell if he's professional or not and quit if they don't like it.
User avatar
MrTwoVideoCards
Monothetic
 
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 am
Location: IN YOUR SOUL

Re: The Contract

Postby Jangalomph on Sun May 19, 2013 2:05 pm

The only input I have on this entire thing is if they expect top notch graphics, source probably isn't the way to go. As i work on INFRA, it is definitely the best looking source mod out there. But even then It cannot compete with an engine like UDK or Cryengine 3. It just cant. Unless they gain a license to the newest version of source (dota 2) and then code in an even better lighting system, I don't see it happening. Granted, source can handle the polys, and source can handle the textures (to a degree). But the biggest thing is just the way lighting is handled, you can barely have any dynamic lighting, and the way models are lit just sucks. Now the lighting on models may have changed into the newer version, which I'm pretty sure it has, as dota 2 has a day/night cycle system. Personally, I as well don't see what the harm in them trying to create this game is. I was an Idea's guy at one point, we all were and still are. Just we act upon them.

Image

Granted i mapped out my idea, but I still failed. And then I tried to extend upon that same idea into another mod, and failed again on a more updated engine (2007)
Image

And even as my own skills progressed over the years, that doesn't mean every one else did on my team. And my leadership was kinda bogus. Granted I was only like 15-16. The point is, if the guy wants to be successful, which I hope he is, because its an interesting idea, then he needs to put in his share of work, and he needs to be fair to his team. But Mr2 is correct, any one can join and leave at their leisure. This guy will find out what he bit into sooner or later, and even though my next big idea is nearly impossible for me, I'll most likely still try it.

Code: Select all
Probably a half off topic relation
http://www.nomoreroominhell.com
I don’t know whether I was right or wrong, I guess I’ll never know… But I made it. And I guess I should be thankful for that. - Strelok
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
User avatar
Jangalomph
Forum Goer Elite™
Forum Goer Elite™
 
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: Sumter, SC

Re: The Contract

Postby Major Banter on Sun May 19, 2013 2:33 pm

This almost makes me want to create a "Mods that failed" thread.
ImageImageImage
Major Banter
Veteran
Veteran
 
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:52 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Contract

Postby plagueofburia on Wed May 22, 2013 1:12 am

I am just starting out modelling objects for my HL2 level. And it is taking a lot of time. I guess if they have many people modelling on one game then perhaps they can make many objects. A whole game with all new props wow, that would be very good, if one could pull that off.

Calm down ...
I mean, a prop can be done in a matter of hours, a small one might take only 1 hour with skin. You only need like 100s of props if you want to have really 100% custom content in a game. They'll do it with ease.

I wish I could work that fast. :) Sathor and thanks for the help previously.

I have heard of other more superior engines than source but I have always liked the architecture of HL2. In how they mixed eastern European with futuristic elements. For instance, the cold blue-ish steel gate elements in city 17 contrasts against the natural lighting of the building colours. I can relate to the real life buildings aspect of HL2 when walking around my surroundings. After reading Raising the bar that fuelled me some what to create my own HL2 level, to their high standards. In doing so, I have a massed over 1000 reference pictures from different areas, where I reside, for my single player level. ranging from train stations to substations to handrails and everything in between. I take this seriously, I mean why do something half hearted, that is not how I roll. I would expect the same from anyone else. Though if people do not share the same vision then people would probably not invest time, that is what I have come to understand of humans. Unless money is involved, well that changes people, that changes everything.

Funnily enough there is area some what close to me with an abandoned industrial building it has to be my favourite building by far. It is HL2 area but for Real!. It could be a level from a HL2 game. This design I probably will use for a building in my level, I hope it never gets knocked down. I want to go inside but it has been boarded off and one faces a fine if found on the property. There is probably dead things in there.

Image

If the people regarding this thread can do what they set out to do good luck to them, it seems like a tall order, I guess anything is possible.

Sorry if I diverged the thread.
plagueofburia
Regular
Regular
 
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:09 am

Re: The Contract

Postby Armageddon on Wed May 22, 2013 1:18 am

What are you talking about.
User avatar
Armageddon
Forum Goer Elite™
Forum Goer Elite™
 
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:53 am

Re: The Contract

Postby plagueofburia on Wed May 22, 2013 2:48 am

The first paragraph relates to something I believe Black_Stormy was talking about making custom models/assets/content 100% original. Regarding the group of people under the name of thecontractgame. For me making custom content seems to be taking a long process. And thecontractgame is going for 100% all original content. Is that not a difficult goal for one to do? but if they are a group of people working on one idea then I guess things can be done more efficiently. That was what my first paragraph statement was regarding.

My second paragragh was regarding what Sathor said, and me stating that I would like to be able to create content in a few hours. He also tried to help me before so I thanked Sathor.

My third paragraph was perhaps a divergent paragraph. The first part relates to something jangalomph wrote. Mentioning the different types of engines like the Unreal engine and the crytek engine. I just thought I would put my view on source that is all. Later in the paragraph I was writing from my experience so far in developing my first area.

Then I end with what I believe breaks up a team or a group of people. That is not backed up by money. I not sure if these groups even exist but if they do then I believe that is what would break up a team or group of people.

If I was working with a group of people that shared my vision then I guess I would be further on in my area. Which is in a way what this thread is all about, is it not. Someone ‘A’ in this case the contractgame seems to have an idea and wants to create a group or team.

I replied in this thread because, I one day in the future, was thinking would it not be more efficient if I worked with a group of people on my area I have planned.

From what I understand a lot of people do this, they appear with the some kind of idea and others do the work but never get things accomplished. I think Black_Stormy labelled it as an “ideas type person”. To be honest I have never heard this term before now, of an “ideas type person”.

Again the fourth paragraph does not relate to the thread as such. Just to ideas can appear from anywhere when designing levels/content/props. Like that great industrial worn down building.

And the last part is me wishing thecontactgame good luck in creating their game.

If you cannot understand I am sorry.
And I hope I do not have to explain everything the future in this way.
plagueofburia
Regular
Regular
 
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:09 am

Re: The Contract

Postby Black_Stormy on Wed May 22, 2013 4:18 am

PlagueOfBuria for post of the year 2013 get your votes in
User avatar
Black_Stormy
May Contain Skills
May Contain Skills
 
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:03 am
Location: Cairns, QLD, AUS
PreviousNext

Return to Mod Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron