I Hate Mountains slated for June 2010

[NykO18]

I'd really want you to quote me the part where I insulted you, because I really can't find it.

I'm just saying that even if this isn't exactly in line with expectations, it's a bit too late to fix this, we can't rework the whole campaign layout now because players can get a bit lost on the first tries, it would require a gigantic amount of work. Look, this is not a Valve campaign, we didn't want to provide the exact same experience. If you're not a fan of this feeling of being a bit lost, well sorry, but believe me when I say that the "community" is very diverse and does enjoy some of the changes. In fact, most people seem to like this feeling in an horror/survival/action fps (and told us that's what they like about IHM). So far we're working on altering the light and playing with effects to better guide the player, but there's little chance we're going to remove/downsize areas at this point in the process.

By the way, we are hobbyists, we're not doing this to find a job in the industry (at least I'm not), we already have interesting jobs

[vcool]

I never talked about multiple pathing.

Oh yeah?

The fact that the campaign is not a brainless walk through the park following one precise and boring path doesn't really account for something we want to fix.

Drop the attitude. This is our criticism.

And Dylan trying to sound like the rest of the community? Are you having a bad day?

It's obvious you won't be reworking this campaign, but it doesn't mean you can't add a decal here or there.

EDIT: Ok you edited the post above, and I'm glad you are considering to add more ways of showing the path to the player. Once again, it's the sewer map mostly.

And don't forget about the log sticking glitch.

[NykO18]

Well, multiple path-ing and sideways are not the same thing. You were talking about sideways and that we should remove/downsize/rework them. I never saw anything regarding multiple paths in there. Sideways add a lot with the impression of being lost when you clearly aren't (because obviously, they don't lead anywhere). But I can see how that could be frustrating when it feels like it lead you astray.

Adding a decal is a particularly good idea. But quite a few people think that this is the worst thing we did on the manor level, so we're wary of abusing it everywhere.

Please chill out, you don't have the whole picture and we can't please everyone or cater to every need. We sure can't listen to everyone, especially when people ask us to change things that many other people think are the best aspect of the campaign. That's why I said nobody should act like they represents the whole community's voice or opinion. Let's be accepting of different experiences.

[no00dylan]

Wow, somone's a bit upset.

The part where you said you're sorry for not making it a brainless walk through the park was a bit insulting. I'm not asking you to rework the entire existing campaign, just to take note of my advice in the future. It's not a Valve campaign, that's true, but these are the people who made Half Life, Portal, Tf2, and the L4d series, I would say they know quite a lot about level design. I know I don't represent all of the community, I'm not trying to, but that doesn't make my input any less important. People love survival horror, but the problems I mentioned make it more of a "getting lost while there are zombies around" simulator than survival horror. I think you need to tone it down a bit, as I've said this compared to any other community campaign is really good but there were a few things that could have made it much better.

[NykO18]

I'm not upset at all, we just can't act on every ideas out there. That doesn't make your voice less important, but you are not more important than the hundred other people that gave us differing opinions.

I would say they know quite a lot about level design.

Of course they know how to target mainstream, please the most people and make something easy enough for everyone, but we are not Valve, we have no commercial interest in this endeavour and we don't really worry if a few people don't like our work. We're not targeting a mainstream audience because we wanted to provide something different than Valve. They are talented, but do not represent the golden rule everyone should follow, they work their way, we work our way.

but the problems I mentioned make it more of a "getting lost while there are zombies around" simulator than survival horror.

Like I said:

This is not a Valve campaign, we don't want to provide the same thing.

[no00dylan]

Alright then, this campaign just isn't for me. Thanks for helping me realize this.

[NykO18]

Just because you got a bit lost on your first play-through? If that's the case, maybe you prefer more linear games with less surprises or re-playability or challenge, straight line to the end enjoying the environment/art? Left 4 Dead was built for re-playability, even on original campaigns you could get lost on your first play-through, it's very fast-paced and stressful as far as gameplay go. But even if you got lost on the first try, there's no chance you'll be lost again. When you realize this, you'll understand that's the strength of this campaign, because if you want, you can alter the experience. Then of course, if Call of Duty is more of your personal choice in video-gaming, this can't work.

As I said, we are aware some paths are not cleverly emphasized and we are working on it. But we can't go against our own vision of what should make a good campaign simply because it's a bit too easy to get lost or because Valve does it differently.

[no00dylan]

NOAP not for me, I don't like that kind of survival horror.

Yeah ima huge call of dudy fan and halo

MASTERCHIEF FOR THE WIN PS3 IS FOR FUGGETS

EDIT: did valve kill your family? You seem to have this terrible tyrant king vision of them, they never said... in all their power that a campaign should be a certain way, they just made several very good campaigns that would be good as examples for modders.

[NykO18]

Well, we drew a lot of inspiration from Valve campaigns, the way they work and proceed with their level-design, but that doesn't mean we have to follow every one of their rule and make the same kind of work. Isn't the point of modding to break free of the original game's rules and make your own?

When it gets to Valve, I do have a lot of resentment for the way they treated us during the development, I don't really like how they stopped supporting the game and abandoned it half broken for modders when they kept promising to fix it and I don't really appreciate that they only provided so little new content after the release contrary to what they originally promised (which are reasons why modders embark on year-long journeys right? Because the game will continue to be updated and played).

As much as I love them and dig their way of thinking/working, that doesn't mean I must endorse everything and agree with everything they do. I have my own opinions and goals and even if we'd really like them to stop ignoring us and give us some real support or feedback on our work, we can survive without it.

In any case, the suggestions are on their way to the campaign, we will fix identified issues, we just won't revamp the concept drastically.