Soul Destroying Kit

[windlab]

A thread has been created for the purpose of organising and mobilising a Source Modders SDK Fix Petition.

Discuss, and we'll craft a plan of action and modify it into perfection.

[bouncy_ninja]

1. I like Valve and i love mapping - most of the time.
2. I do this becouse i care about them and us for a better SDK
3. I Could have made this rant 10X longer... but i must sleep and and i type/spell/grammer schockiing
4. I mostly Agree with all above in one way or another
5. I'll STFU if they make triangle displanments, it'll save me appx 100 hours over the next year alone.
6. Every time A Valve game updates i get Scaryed the SDk will stop working again,.
7.

Major Banter-
And then proceed to constantly use SDK anyway.

Indeed, i'm not going to throw 7 years of work away - but if you told me it would be like this i would have gone to any other engine on day 1.


Waring bad rant below:

-been mapping since 98? 99? and have watched the slow growing SDK -still have the same badly shaped icons and tool bars, how retro .

'too busy making games' - which came first the chicken or the egg?
Tools make Games.
And Hammer is by far the slowest.... want an ant lion? yes that'll be a few entity... and few more.. not one, not if you want to do it right!
Slow Tools > Slow development time.
valve tools > valve time.
(BTW i have no doubt there in house tools are a bit better, mostly due to 3rd party copy rights i'd say)

3rd Party
Valve have contracted/hired outside studios to do work for them like Turtle Rock did with CS:S and now the new CS:S OB update. Strangely Valve relies on 3rd partys alot, CS:S one of the flagships of the complany and Also 3rd partys in the way of modders and mapper etc, more content... etc but sometimes valve leave huge "holes" in which someone takes the time and effort to program a plug in to css server for hit damage report.... dose that not seam like valve should have done that in the first place?? or atlest done it in the OB update? this is just one example but follows through to modding like texture compiling programs.

the Community is strong ....and a little frustrated
Valve aren't part of our community tho the watch us sometimes drop us bits of info, but are to busy to properly join in,
How meny valve employers are signed up to this forum? maybe 1. I'm not say i expect them too but there are a few blank pages on valvesoftware wiki that need filling out...

Documention
Ever since it HL1 mapping started there wasn't that much documentation and it's still limited most of it was been past around then net a few time and mostly put together by the community, and you know valve have some of this stuff laying around... but again to busy.

Surfa-
Also I think the main reason for this decline is that valve are recognizing that modding is slowly dieing. People now are creating indie games instead of mods.

Correct, But back to front.
In the Golden Years, as in goldscr HL1 modding was ease to do as in the "small" amount of work/time to be done.
HL2 Mods need so much more time/work. Do you remeber all the HL1 Mods that were going to do a No.2 of there mod then Hl2 came out and they all said yeah it won't be out next month like planned but will be out on HL2 engine in 6 six months..... 7 years later and fire arms 2 comes out.... that being said i think it's diffrenet group of ppl....
...oh RIP all the mods that never made it to Source. god rest there little 1's and 0's.
Slow Tools > Slow development time.
The SDK Killed mods.... at lest on source

MODS

what is a mod? will valve will tell you a good mod will be bought out by them and built on there engine. Even if DOTA was on W3 and portal was on Unreal (might have been Q3 *shruggs*)
*
Oh and why buy out a mod if you don't need to? L4D...
Long time a ago i joined a server hosted by some random we played for few hours on CSS on few custom maps against bots... so i we start doing things like "low grav" and so with these bots we made them knife only and not retret and unblaneced the teams.... his name was degaeen, we had just make the (as far as i know) first CSS zomibe shooter, i believe it turned into zombie horde, now there a re few more thses days under virous names but then valve did L4D, just a polshed CSS zomibe mod...


Surfa-
The point is we are going to see a decrease in the number of people using source.

Why use the source engine when you can use something like the udk/unity/cryengine/leadwerks/tourque?

Honestly Source has had its time as the go to engine for modders and unless valve want to revamp it or release a new engine to compete (which they don't seem to want to) then of-course source modding is going to die down."

I Agree.


PPS RE: Major Banter -
"Photoshop CS5 is utterly incredible. It's amazing. But learning manipulation years ago with Ulead Photothingy 1998 was dire" PhotoShop 3.1 was out then.... why not use that? worked better and faster

[YokaI]

The article was short and rather to the point with his dissapointment with hammer, but nonetheless all the points were valid and I think have a lot of truth behind them. People have stated these comments aren't true after spending time with hammer to a certain point, but I don't think that's at all true. It's rather that you've adapted to the environment and you don't recognize these issues as a true problem!

The multiple SDK start ups are not only questionable, but are pretty unreasonable and not friendly to the modding community. While UDK is new, there's something to be said about them updating UDK each month with new features and tools they are utilizing for games that aren't even out yet! The truth of the matter is that the source SDK has some many gaping flaws.

The tool itself hasn't been getting worse though, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. What it has been doing, however, is becoming less and less useful and more and more out of date. There's plenty of technologies used by Valve that have yet to be integrated to the SDK. Not only that, but there's also plenty of workflow issues (texture / model compiling) and compiling in the source engine hardly allows you to even check on the progress of compiles the majority of the time. Lastly, every new feature added to the editor, things like particle effect editors and the most recent TileGen creator, do not have their own launcher and aren't even shortcutted via the Source SDK menu.

Valve hammer itself is fine, it's a simple tool to use and isn't very modern or very standard in terms of 3d development technologies, but the tool works great and best yet it's easy for artists to do what needs to be done. The unfortunate part about source atm is the following:
=> SDK menu being useless. (No shortcuts or low processor demanding version of things like the tilegen Editor or the Particle editor)
=> Work Flow Issues (Importing art assets / other assets to levels / mods is not only a pain, but there's no simple to use GUI for modifying a models properties or importing any content to the editor)
=> Compiling tools are not only innefficient but are also downright messy to use. ("Final" compile settings and things considered "advanced compile settings" should have presets to make it more apparent to new users, the compile window always crashes preventing the user from checking compile process)


Otherwise, source SDK is nice, but key features are missing. Also, I've never had my presets goofed up unless I accidently goofed them up myself.

People are just realizing source sdk sucks? I hope I never have to work in source ever again.

I think the rise of free tools (like UDK) that don't require purchase have opened the eyes of many. I never messed with Unreal editing until UDK was released, and I am in love with the workflow. It has allowed me to bridge the gap I had between being "a mapper" and "a modeler" and now they're kind of the same thing at this point.


Also, steam groups are an inefficient way of boycotting / asking valve to change things. You can be sure that they have someone who goes around reading forums like these, if not just employees on their spare time. (probably during one of there many many long compile times. )

Well a guy on twitter got Gabe to at least admit to working on EP3, imagine what we could do if we got a truly organized group.

W..Wait, Gabe has a twitter? I must complete my twitter following of game developers! It cannot end @ sakaguchi and ono, I must have gabes twitter! D:<

[Mr. Happy]

I recently ran into the batch compile problem myself after spending have an hour carefully writing and formatting a sexy batch file to compile half a dozen maps I double clicked it, went downstairs, and watched TV all day only to find later that night a long list of errors. Luckily for me I rarely run into any of the serious SDK breaking errors that others do.

People used to say often that the SDK should come with an IQ test, this article has me even more convinced that Valve has created some sort of virus to break the SDK on the computers of people it has deemed unworthy. Not to imply that the author of this article is an idiot, or unworthy of mapping, but Zombie Master, while I understand to be quite unique well made and fun, is another game in a long, long, long, long, long, long, line of Zombie games. I suspect when GlaDOS discovered he was working on a zombie game she sent the SDK virus upon him. While this man is one of the exceptions, I have noticed a distinct correlation between work-halting SDK bugs and people who would probably be happier persuing the fine art of flower-arranging in their spare time.

In the end, the SDK is definitely getting to be rediculous. A billion different engine versions, a patchwork quilt of barely interconnected systems, ancient relics of code...I am holding out hope that the Portal2/EP3/Source2 engine will come with a 100% brand new and totally seperate from the old SDK that is 100% bug free on all systems and includes a full IDE gui for everything with super-futuristic drag and drop technologies! I hope.

It is interesting at the end of the article:

In a conversation I once had with Mike Durand at Valve (coincidentally after I'd written a long rant about the then-state of their SDK. See a pattern?) he said that they were too busy making cool games to work on the tools, and I considered that to be a fair point at the time. Now, though, it seems like something of a cop-out. When Valve provide the engine and games that the majority of popular mods are based on, and that this is seemingly a point of pride for them, then they should put more effort into making those tools work. It's not like they don't have the resources.

Isn't Mike Durand's sole job supposed to be making the SDK work?

[quote="YokaI](probably during one of there many many long compile times. )[/quote]

Supposedly valve distributes their compiles over every machine in the office. Or something.

I swear to god what we see has to be only a shadow of their own internal toolsets. There is no way in hell the artists would put up with qc'ing every single model they produce, even if that's what they had to do six years ago. We know the tools we have aren't the same, someone posted a screenshot of Hammer once with dislodgable viewports and of course, supposedly, their lighting preview does stuff. I am convinced that the tools we have, especially the model/texture compile tools, are small parts of a larger, integrated, networked, source controlled, office wide SYSTEM. They probably have dozens of ways of importing models each of which simply accesses the basic command line program that's shipped to us. They're probably all laughing at us right now drinking wine and eating cheese and speaking in snooty french accents about how limited our poor little peon's toolsets are.

[MrTwoVideoCards]

The reality of the fact is that Valve doesn't have it in their best interest to appeal to the needs to the modding community. Hammer and the SDK tools have HARDLY seen any immense updates or features over the lifetime of their existence.

The truth is that everytime an SDK update comes out, people go nuts saying things like: "ZOMG THEY ADDED LIGHTING PREVIEW MODE" etc, etc.

Features that quite a lot of editors and engines have had for years. Modders for source seem to be stuck in this reality distortion field, and only until now have realized it.

This leads me back to a post someone made here about BSP's. Source is really the only commercial engine left using the BSP format. Every engine is moving on from that, hell even Id Tech is. Having said that I don't think that Portal 2 is going to do much for the engine, and neither is Episode 3. Then again for all we know Valve could be working on separate engine branches. The current build being that of Portal 2, and a extremely changed engine for EP3. The chances of that however are as slim as us living on mars in the next ten years.

Also Happy I agree with you entirely, and often think the same thing to myself. Is Valve really putting up with the way their tools work? I would at least think some of them up at Valve would plain give up and rage quit. There has to be some magic Hammer up there that never crashes, or at least a proper threaded 64 bit Hammer. I don't even honestly know if Hammer is running in 64 bit mode, and it sure as hell isn't multi-threaded thats for sure!

[Gradius]

Threading? I'd settle for shit not getting fucked up if you alt tab, or make a blank selection.

Stuff like being able to disable drawing anything other than a gray box for entities would be useful (I'm sure I'm not the only one that spends forever trying to select sprites since they end up hidden by their glow) or selecting entity soup (especially if the entities all need their origin over one point).

Seperating the compile process (of course doing this on our end creates problems with settling props, right?) so my computer doesnt get lagged to all hell.

It needs fixes more than it does features really.

With the exception of making proper non-command-line tools.

Want to make a texture without using VTFedit? You need 1 command line + 1 text file, same for models I believe.
Want to make a nav mesh? You need to use console commands or rebind all your keys (confusing if thats all you're using =/, gimme a gui).
Settle your props so they dont spazz all over the place the first time you run your map, build your cube maps? About 6-8 console commands needed just to get your map running at a basic level.

They really need to make tools that "Just work.", tools where you compile a map and its done, tools where things can be done in an efficient, non-technical, manner.

[DrFeelGood]

My only question is, if they do bring out an all new SDK.... with a new engine & stuff... what happens to those like me who still map on the 2006 version for HL2DM? Granted it may be old and outdated, but DM is about the only thing I care to map for, although I do play the other games (TF2, Portal, L4D, etc). My fear is they'll get to mucking with things and break SDK for DM, and then what? I'll be forced to learn how to map all over again on a different engine for a game I have no thrill about mapping for?

Maybe im missing something here... I think Im the only person thoughout this who process of boycotting & petitioning Valve that has mentioned concerns about HL2:DM. My steam group may be small, but we are dedicated to keeping DM going. I for one sure am. If they do intend to update SDK, I would like to see things available for the 2006 engine like lighting preview and maybe being able to reassign hotkeys (mainly cause I can only use one hand cause of my disability, I guess im selfish like that).

I mean if they bring out a whole new SDK and kill/break the ability map for the older games, what am I left with?

Again, just my 2 cents worth...

[Major Banter]

I thoroughly and completely agree with the lot of you.

Yokai, ninja, MrTwo, Happy, even Marks; good points, well made.

It's pretty interesting to establish that Interlopers has some major issues with the SDK, and some potent opinions, but above all still has the capability to get on with it.

I mean, seriously. I'm impressed. I've never read such cohesive and above all precise arguments made by people who not only know the tool but have learnt to understand every intricate detail. None of it is rant, it's all solid fact.

[Tonedef]

As a graphic designer I really feel one of Valve's issues with the SDK is usability and efficiency. Their SDK, from and interface standpoint, is like an afterthought...and not a deep one. And this has caused much frustration through the modding community.

Aside from the sins of UI design the SDK is just cumbersome. With antiquated BSP tech and a rather ignored effects and audio system I think many people don't want to commit the time to creating a mod for an engine that feels dated.

Source was barely revolutionary when it came out and the changes in the past years have largely been mere cosmetics.

Also, the reason I think the UDK is so appealing to others is that, commercial or not, it is a nearly unrestricted and relevant engine tech. When modding was in its infancy (which I still consider it to be when Source landed) an SDK for a game was more of a courtesy, but as modding has blossomed the 'business model' so to speak had to shift. Digital distribution makes it easier and easier for indie developers to distribute games and afford development (if commercial).

So by Epic pitching their engine to the amateurs, rather than a game with some tools, and giving them the option to go commercial has changed things a lot in a short time. Valve is losing their foothold in the amateur game dev community and if they don't sit back and evaluate, design and release their engine, standalone, to the mass public then their 'mod scene' will surely die.

Though, I don't think it is fair to say that modding is dieing, it's evolving.

At the very least though...Valve needs to rework hammer and their bsp system from the ground up. Maybe they can take a lesson from Unknown World's Spark engine.

[Noodles]

Yeah I'd just like to note that I have no problem with the current method of selecting engines, apart from the obvious that you can't mod on 2009. Keeping the 2006 stuff (HL2DM) is good as there are a lot of mods that haven't moved to orangebox yet, or were released before orangebox and are stilled mapped for. Etc etc etc.

Also, bump on custom models into hammer, and mdldecompiling

BTW, on the Hammer compiling issues, there's a tool I have that's an external compiler and it's almost perfect. http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=4814

No freeze, GUI options for the advanced stuff, and easy to cancel compile process. GUI could be a little easier to use (some of the menu buttons don't look like buttons, so right click on everything and you'll find what you want lol.)