Propper issues

Any aspects of level design for the Source engine.

Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:32 am

I guess this is a good a place as any to announce this: The new version is out:

http://crazycarl.hl2sm.com/files/propper_0.24.zip

Changes since last release:
  • Fixed bug where using one alternate skin caused skins not to work
  • Propper should now create any folder that needs to be created
  • the OB version no longer creates a .bsp file
  • logging is off by default. Use the command line option -logging to turn it back on. Hopefully this gets around the problem where it tries to create a log but can't.
  • option to remove bumpmapping from the converted materials. Useful if you plan to use -StaticPropLighting on compile
  • Fixed the issue with FGD files loading in the wrong order.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby gtamike_TSGK on Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:49 am

cool

I use these settings for my .bat file for the vmf to be dragged onto.

Code: Select all
@echo on
cd C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\gtamike\sourcesdk\bin\ep1\bin
"C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\gtamike\sourcesdk\bin\ep1\bin\propper.exe" -game "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\gtamike\half-life 2 deathmatch\hl2mp" %1
@pause


EDIT
link is down so I uploaded to my site.
http://gtamike.tsgk.com/Propper_0.24.rar
Last edited by gtamike_TSGK on Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby Groxkiller585 on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:46 pm

crazycarl wrote:I guess this is a good a place as any to announce this: The new version is out:

http://crazycarl.hl2sm.com/files/propper_0.24.zip

Changes since last release:
  • Fixed bug where using one alternate skin caused skins not to work
  • Propper should now create any folder that needs to be created
  • the OB version no longer creates a .bsp file
  • logging is off by default. Use the command line option -logging to turn it back on. Hopefully this gets around the problem where it tries to create a log but can't.
  • option to remove bumpmapping from the converted materials. Useful if you plan to use -StaticPropLighting on compile
  • Fixed the issue with FGD files loading in the wrong order.


So does this fix the issues I had with trying to compile from within hammer failing?

Glad you fixed the skin issues. And i like the folder creation, is a real pain to go through all the work then realize you forgot to make the folders.

Just as an experiment, i'm trying to make a model that looks really, really good using Propper and alot of model texture parameters (Phong, bumpmap, you know the drill)

Now if only it could have an option to create a simple UV map for the model (Like say, you use a specific tool texture and it converts the aflicted areas to a single VTF/TGA file that is a UV outline.) It would help me immensely, both for saving memory and easier reskinning, it's easier to touch up a model if it has one and not 12 or more materials. (Plus this kills RAM I think, using alot of materials on one model is bad for performance.)
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Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:07 am

Groxkiller585 wrote:So does this fix the issues I had with trying to compile from within hammer failing?

I hope so. Please try it and let me know, because I never experienced that error in the first place.

Groxkiller585 wrote:Now if only it could have an option to create a simple UV map for the model (Like say, you use a specific tool texture and it converts the aflicted areas to a single VTF/TGA file that is a UV outline.) It would help me immensely, both for saving memory and easier reskinning, it's easier to touch up a model if it has one and not 12 or more materials. (Plus this kills RAM I think, using alot of materials on one model is bad for performance.)

The original idea was that you'd use textures that were already in the map, so it wouldn't impact memory usage. Automatic UV mapping would be cool, but I think it's outside the scope of what I want to do. There are other tools for UV mapping that give much better results than an automatic process.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby Groxkiller585 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:26 am

crazycarl wrote:
Groxkiller585 wrote:So does this fix the issues I had with trying to compile from within hammer failing?

I hope so. Please try it and let me know, because I never experienced that error in the first place.

Groxkiller585 wrote:Now if only it could have an option to create a simple UV map for the model (Like say, you use a specific tool texture and it converts the aflicted areas to a single VTF/TGA file that is a UV outline.) It would help me immensely, both for saving memory and easier reskinning, it's easier to touch up a model if it has one and not 12 or more materials. (Plus this kills RAM I think, using alot of materials on one model is bad for performance.)

The original idea was that you'd use textures that were already in the map, so it wouldn't impact memory usage. Automatic UV mapping would be cool, but I think it's outside the scope of what I want to do. There are other tools for UV mapping that give much better results than an automatic process.


YH but I simply mean something that maps out the whole model's UV wrapping on one texture. I've tried doing this with other programs but it never maps correctly; it either maps it on one axis and flattens it (as in only one side looks right, everywhere else is stretched) or overlays bits of it over other bits of it.

Also memory will be impacted; using multiple materials on a model, no matter what, ALWAYS impacts memory if your using more than 4. (hence why most VALVe models, save for low-poly doors and other exeptions, have only up to 4 skins.) Even if that texture is in the map, it still has to load both the Vertex and Lightmapped versions, so if I could figure out how to map it on ONE texture, it both is way more convienent and saves on memory useage.

Say I used 5 texture on a model, then used those 5 textures in the map. The game will load all 10 materials. Yes they are loading the same TEXTURE, but it's loading different MATERIALS, and this is where lag can come into play. It treats the two differently despite being the same texture.

Now if I had only 1 texture for the whole model, then that cuts 4 other materials needed to be loaded.

I'm not sure if this is entirely true but i've found that using multiple skins on Propper models and using more than 4 tends to have a perfromance hit, though it may be my really poor intergrated graphics, the VDC does state:

VDC wrote: As you can see, creating a matrix of skin combinations has distinct advantages,however, using multiple materials on the same model creates a significant performance hit, so this technique should be used sparingly!


http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Multiple_Skins_for_a_Single_Model

EDIT:

Code: Select all
** Executing...
** Command: propper
** Parameters: -game "c:\program files\steam\steamapps\groxkiller585\portal\portal" "c:\users\charles\desktop\randomsdkmaps\test
"

Propper 0.24 by crazycarl. Adapted from vbsp.exe by Valve Software. (Oct 25 2010)
1 threads
materialPath: c:\program files\steam\steamapps\groxkiller585\portal\portal\materials
Error opening c:\users\charles\desktop\randomsdkmaps\test

.vmf: File c:\users\charles\desktop\randomsdkmaps\test

.vmf, line 1: Invalid argument.



Error I get trying to compile normally. Apperently it doesn't like my VMF file, despite there being a Propper_Options in it, and set up to already made directories.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:59 am

The UV mapping that Propper generates will have everything overlapping, unless you've carefully textured it in Hammer so that no two faces use the same part of the texture. You'd need to manually grab each face and arrange them onto the texture the way you want it.

UV mapping is a painstaking task that must be done manually if you want it done well. Any method I'd come up with would be no better than those other tools. It sounds like you just need to find a good tool and learn to use it well.

It could be that there is some overhead cost when using several materials on a model. Further testing would be needed to verify this. I would think that texture memory would be the limiting factor, much more than the cost of loading materials (which are tiny text files) and running two simple shaders.

EDIT: Another person has experienced the same error. It looks like the same bug that caused the logging error is still there. I hoped that disabling logging would take care of it, but no such luck. It seems like there's some kind of string problem, with the way it inserts two page breaks into the file name.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby Groxkiller585 on Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:26 am

I figured as much, nothing is ever simple in modelling. Well I will deal and try to fix it as best I can using another modelling program. I'm only telling you what i've read and experienced so if it is true for all systems, IDK.

As for the error, I wish you luck on fixing it, if it's possible. I can still deal with the .BAT, actually got very used to it.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby kkirspel on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:32 am

I'm not at home to test this, otherwise I wouldn't bother you with questions but can I take something like a brush built ladder with the func_usableladder and info_ladder_dismount and compile them into a model all together to make a more efficient model? Or something like an overhead light with its own point_spotlight?
I suppose I could do the same thing by just making a pre-fab of the model and entities though...
Last edited by kkirspel on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:57 pm

Nope. Propper ignores any entities except the ones I've included in the downoad. You can attach ropes and particle emitters to props, but not much else.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby chlballi on Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:32 pm

I'm also getting the error mentioned above:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Propper 0.24 by crazycarl. Adapted from vbsp.exe by Valve Software. (Oct 25 2010)
1 threads
materialPath: c:\program files\steam\steamapps\chlballi\half-life 2 episode two\ep2\materials
Error opening c:\program files\steam\steamapps\chlballi\sourcesdk_content\hl2\mapsrc\brickmodel

.vmf: File c:\program files\steam\steamapps\chlballi\sourcesdk_content\hl2\mapsrc\brickmodel

.vmf, line 1: Invalid argument.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any headway on what can be done to fix the issue? Thanks.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:44 am

To anyone who's having this problem: Make sure that the parameters box--
Image

Does not have any line breaks in it. You should not be able to put the text cursor below the -game $gamedir stuff at all. If it's there, delete it. This could easily happen if you copy-paste the code off a web page.

If anybody takes this advice and gets the problem to go away, please let me know.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby Gary on Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:50 am

Forgot to do it earlier, but I wanted to thank you CrazyCarl. I've only used your app a few times, but I shall be using much more it if I choose to continue working on my mod. Your tool is very useful to modelers and mappers, sure, I could create a model the "proper" way with a 3D modeling package, but that takes far more; time, work and effort.

With this I can just make something up in Hammer and turn it into a model, so anything that would that would be just unnecessary adding to my brush count can easily be turned into a prop. Of course this is no replacement for modeling packages, but it does make our lives easier in many cases.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby keldorn on Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:46 pm

Groxkiller585 wrote:Say I used 5 texture on a model, then used those 5 textures in the map. The game will load all 10 materials. Yes they are loading the same TEXTURE, but it's loading different MATERIALS, and this is where lag can come into play. It treats the two differently despite being the same texture.


Is there like a white paper from valve somewhere that you read? I'm actually kind of interested in this.
Yes texture memory is so important in source. I texture my maps with only 60 - 70MB. I noticed valve does the thing. It really requires a lot of creative re-use of textures. I was under the impression too with using propper that a lightmapgeneric and a vertexlit version of the same .vtf file wouldn't cause extra memory overhead compared to using a unique UV map on the model instead.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby crazycarl on Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:15 am

I'm skeptical that it would cause any perceptible performance hit. The way to find out would be to do a stress test with a bunch of models with multiple materials, and compare it to a map with the same textures used on brushes.
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Re: Propper issues

Postby Gambini on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:53 pm

Hi people. I recently turned into models a few more brushworks of my map to reduce the brushcount. But now i have a problem that didn´t encounter ever before: These archs are done in the same way the older archs are done. But for some reason the new ones seem to cast shadows according to their bounding box. Since i didn´t do any major change to the level config nor touched any other critical thing (as source code nor changed the way i compile the map) I dare to attribute the problem to some Propper issue.

Image

Image

Notice how the flashlight can go through this black curtain. Well, for some reason only the models i compiled with propper 0.24 seem to be casting this huge shadow .
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