$ Paid Urgent Request

[smashbits]

That's exactly correct Dr. Delta. Machinima and Riot have had very specific conversations about whats off limits and what not. For example, Riot has very clearly asked us not to do anything that would add anything to their lore. Although I'm sure there are legal ways around this - we don't want to ruin the relationship.

Bungie was so pleased with Red VS Blue that they gave Rooster Teeth all the models from Halo Reach before the game was even released. The truth is, machinimation and similarly styled 3D animation ripped game content helps promote games - so game companies love us machinimation producers for it.

But again, none of this will probably matter to whoever I find that is able to do this job.

[nub]

He said:

(1) Machinima and Riot have a working relationship with defined rules of conduct and this fits within the rules

I'm not trying to argue the topic or anything, but the rules of conduct say that it's perfectly legal to pay someone to port/rip content from League of Legends to another engine to then be used to create machinima? I could easily understand just porting the content and using it, but for someone to make money off of porting it? That's the part that comes in to question.

Then again, Machinima and its partners make money off their videos on Youtube. So I guess paying someone to port the content isn't that big of a deal. Since machinima featuring League of Legends content would inevitably promote the game and in turn benefit Riot, they probably don't mind.

Still, paying someone to port stuff is, to me, somewhat unethical. There's a huge difference between taking content from one game and making it run on another engine; and actually creating content from scratch. The latter is far more complicated and requires artistic talent and easily warrants payment. Porting on the other hand is ultimately just a modder's past time and really doesn't deserve any kind of payment. This is obviously just my opinion, but I feel like the majority of honest modders out there would agree with it.

[smashbits]

It looks like I found somebody on a different forum. I still need to wait to see if they can do it but they are very confident. Thanks for your time everybody.

[smashbits]

Nub,

I applaud you for delving into the ethics of the question rather than focusing just on what is legal and not legal. Before CD/DVD burning and Napster was clearly illegal, I still would not copy/share music files or burn CDs. I knew this hurt the musicians and producers and everybody else involved. It was and it still is very wrong. Now, there are some artists who make their money in other ways and encourage it – that’s a different story.

The only company that I can think of that might care if somebody rips models would be Disney. They are extremely concerned about the use of their characters in ANYTHING. But even then, it’s not about the video game ripping as much as it is about the use of their characters.

[no00dylan]

I don't know why I find this thread so hilarious.

[Jman]

Yeah it was a really cool problem to solve that turned into the usual "ports are legally questionable" song and dance. I'm more interested in seeing someone attempt to apply 3D Ripper and see what they get out of it.

[nub]

There's a LoL modding community, albeit small. There were relatively simple porting tools for the game back when I was still tinkering with porting and reskins and whatnot. I'm fairly certain there are updated porting tools for the game floating around the web somewhere. The Xentax forums is a great place for that type of thing. I would check there.

[kraid]

You're in contact with the developers and have the OK for using their stuff?
In that case it's indeed not an issue.

[smashbits]

I'll pay $100 to the person who can complete this project within 24 hours of this post.

[Hollow]

I'll pay $100 to the person who can complete this project within 24 hours of this post.

Ok, so, let me try and wrap my head round this.

Machinima, your employer, has a mutual & legal agreement for content makers such as yourself to use Riot's assets to make videos that Machinima profits from, yet you are unable to find ANYBODY willing to do this, that it causes you to chuck up a now partially desperate sounding request, with an asking price that...isn't really that much dosh. Especially considering the time-frame & amount of work that would probably be involved.
Can I ask, why are Machinima not helping you with this? Or do they not give a shit? If you're on a tight deadline that you need this done within 24 hours, don't you think that sounds a LITTLE suspect to some people?

Also lets clear this up, I'm not telling anybody to not do this, seriously go for it! it's quick cash if it's legit. I'm not condoning it in any way if you really have a special arrangement with Riot. I just find it very amusing, due to how far-fetched this whole thing sounds in principle.

But honestly, it seems almost like it's blood money if no one has already taken the dive and is willing to attribute themselves to it.

[nub]

24 hours? It's possible I suppose, if you did some basic porting of the props and worked NONSTOP. The only real challenge, assuming there are working tools out there that don't create issues with the ported models, would be scaling all the props so they were the correct size in Source, then creating collision meshes for them. Most of the props would probably work fine if you used the reference SMD as a collision, but some might require custom made phys meshes. This alone would probably take up the majority of the time. As far as textures go, it's just a matter of converting them to VTF, then writing up some basic VertexLitGeneric VMTs with base textures and, if available, normal maps. Writing up QC files would honestly be equally as simple. I used to be pretty damn proficient with Notepad++ and doing QCs and VMTs from scratch.

However, a DECENT port of all those assets would take considerably longer. A good port means doing additional work on textures, like slapping some good specular and/or phong on them so it translates well to Source. But you'd DEFINITELY want them to have normal maps at the very least. Let's face it, textures in Source just look like ass without normal maps. They appear super bland and flat. I'm pretty sure LoL uses normal maps for larger models and world textures (but lack any kind of specular or phong or anything like that, minus a few rare cases). And I have NO idea how good the models would look after being blown up to scale in Source. They're much smaller in LoL and you don't look at them as closely, so they lack the texture resolution and poly count of assets from other games. The lower poly count isn't much of an issue since a good looking texture can make up for a model's lack of detail. But if the texture is awful looking, the model will look like a giant turd no matter how many polygons it has. Just a general rule of thumb.


But I'm tired of wall posting. Sorry guys. I get too involved with these kinds of discussions. It's like my modder's blood is boiling.

[smashbits]

Hollow,

I understand you are trying to warn your friends away from this project because to you it sounds “suspect.” That is very kind of you. However, I guarantee anybody interested in this project; Machinima has a legal team that focuses on these sorts of questions. And again, if you are seriously still worried – we will not credit you. Like I said before, Machinima and many other companies have been doing this for many years now for commercial purposes and there have been no legal issues. Instead, game companies are extremely favorable toward it and toward us. Is there a single court case regarding the use of ripped 3D models in a machinima production? How about a cease and desist order of any kind?

I’m sorry if my asking price is not enough. I keep asking for somebody to give me an estimate of some sort and nobody has given me one. Please forgive my ignorance from the work involved. How much do you recommend I ask for this? I could really use your advice and direction on this.

Why is Machinima not helping me? It sounds like perhaps there is some misunderstanding of how our company works. Asking Riot for models would be like an independent movie director from a low budget production asking Disney if they can use a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. There is nothing wrong with using the prop but in order for them to take the email serious I would have to contact my boss who would contact his boss who would contact his boss, etc, etc, who would then use his connection to contact his employee who would contact his employee, etc. etc. This kind of favor is not worth it when I can easily find somebody to rip this for me for a couple bucks. The relationship up top is okay with with this - but the producers down bottom have a little tiny voice. Now if this series had millions of views and had an audience – that would be an entirely different story.

[Smurftyours]

The time frame and compensation you proposed for a task like this is pretty ridiculous. For a quality job it would take week(s) and hundreds of dollars to get someone talented and unscrupulous enough to preform the task.

As for the legality of the situation, I assume your 'legal team' is pretty experienced due to the hundreds of trademarked, copyrighted, and restricted assets you use in your episodes. But honestly, whats the appeal in trying to profit off of all this work you haven't created? Pretty unoriginal...

[nub]

Apparently it's possible to get character models in to Maya (which means there might be a way to get models in to 3DS Max, to whomever it may concern). This is a newer skin of Gangplank, and I'm pretty confident that the file system that Riot currently uses was pretty much the same when the pictured model was ported. How it was ported, I have no clue, but it was definitely a port and not a rip. The user who posted the image in the thread I found it in claims its a port. I know you're looking for map props and not characters, but this sheds some light on the possibility of porting them.

Overall, it's safe to assume that anything that has been ported from the game at this point was kept private for the most part. You can thank the ego of Gmod users for that one. There's always someone who openly states that they possess models from some game that nobody else has (or that only a small group of people have) and when anyone asks them to share the content, they flat out refuse. The group that was porting Halo content was by far the worst bunch when it came to holding ported content hostage.

Anyway, this task is actually not that monumental if you think about it. It's just more time consuming than 24 hours. There's not a ton of props and textures that make up Summoner's Rift. The map doesn't vary a whole lot in visuals for the most part, and assets are reused often. Additionally, some assets could be replaced with stock content and still look good (mainly world textures).

Now, if we were talking about recreating the content from scratch then, yes, it would be a huge undertaking that's worth well over $100. But porting isn't that much of a chore if there are proper porting tools available, and the person porting has a good workflow set up. Ripping on the other hand is definitely more time consuming and difficult since you often run in to problems that require meticulous work to correct.

[Hollow]

I understand you are trying to warn your friends away from this project because to you it sounds “suspect.” That is very kind of you. However, I guarantee anybody interested in this project; Machinima has a legal team that focuses on these sorts of questions. And again, if you are seriously still worried – we will not credit you.

I am personally not worried nor really care what happens or if anybody actually accepts the work. It's their choice. And I'm not here to ''warn my friends'' here on interlopers. i trust most of the community here can speak for themselves on the matter. I am not the voice of reason, nor trying to be. I am not objectifying to the fact that Nub is going out of his way to make your life easier - "oh noes stop helping him guys!!!" - in terms of getting a solution.

Like I said before, Machinima and many other companies have been doing this for many years now for commercial purposes and there have been no legal issues. Instead, game companies are extremely favorable toward it and toward us. Is there a single court case regarding the use of ripped 3D models in a machinima production? How about a cease and desist order of any kind?

Maybe because a lot of companies really can't be bothered to cipher through the swamp that is Machinima, and target specific content creators that are part of the network. I doubt they are making a dent in their revenue for their IP's.

I’m sorry if my asking price is not enough. I keep asking for somebody to give me an estimate of some sort and nobody has given me one. Please forgive my ignorance from the work involved. How much do you recommend I ask for this? I could really use your advice and direction on this.

I ain't giving you any price guides. As someone who is meant to be a "professional" in the video game entertainment industry, you should know your shit by now. Someone could charge you a multitude of amounts higher and you wouldn't even realise you had been ripped off. Also I personally can't give you a quote because I'm a Level Designer & Environment Artist by trade. I don't even know if 'Model Ripper' constitutes as an actual job. Certainly aren't any in the industry. It's a hobby you do on the side to try shit out. I would never be able to rip content from the games I have worked on, past or present. In fact, most contracts have the NDA remain in effect 6 months after you have left the studio regarding development. But it's still forever a no go.
I even have a secondary contract with my current studio to protect the IP of the indie game I am working on so there isn't a conflict of interest between the two products. I am neck deep in the obtuse legal rights over creative licenses brudda, So I would probably know more than the average person.

Why is Machinima not helping me? It sounds like perhaps there is some misunderstanding of how our company works. Asking Riot for models would be like an independent movie director from a low budget production asking Disney if they can use a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. There is nothing wrong with using the prop but in order for them to take the email serious I would have to contact my boss who would contact his boss who would contact his boss, etc, etc, who would then use his connection to contact his employee who would contact his employee, etc. etc. This kind of favor is not worth it when I can easily find somebody to rip this for me for a couple bucks. The relationship up top is okay with with this - but the producers down bottom have a little tiny voice. Now if this series had millions of views and had an audience – that would be an entirely different story.

It would be the production company who made the props that has the say in whether an independent director could use some, not Disney, unless it was something specific to the lore or canon of their movies, then no chance lol. So yeah, bad analogy on your part there.

Well I guess it's a case of differing opinions of ethics. Because personally I am not a fan of what Machinima does to content creators quite frankly. From friends who work in animation and even other youtubers warn against shackling yourself to them. If you want to stand out. make ORIGINAL CONTENT. You know, where you do everything yourself and not use game sprites from stuff you don't own. *cough cough wink wink* And not with Machinima. Because OneyNG said so: