$ Paid Urgent Request

[nub]

I am not objectifying to the fact that Nub is going out of his way to make your life easier in terms of getting a solution.

You give me too much credit. All I did was go on Facepunch and do a search under the Modelling section for the terms "League of Legends." Needless to say, the results were shoddy at best. But what I did find I figured I might as well forward to him. It only took me five minutes to find at most.


PS: OneyNG is a true paragon and legend amongst his kind.

[smashbits]

Hollow, if you are not interested in helping people, then why spend so long writing responses? I can’t help but interpret your intention here to enjoy yourself arguing and being mean. Like I keep saying, I am not interested in an argument. I have a job that needs done.

You are right that most content makes a dent in revenue but every once in a while something big does come up. Regardless, you are mostly right so good argument.

Lastly, whether an independent director has to contact Disney or some other production company has nothing to do with my analogy. With the point of my argument it doesn’t matter who exactly is involved – the relationships remain the same.

[smashbits]

So what I am hearing from you all is that $400 is a better place to begin negotiation. Is that correct?

[Hollow]

Hollow, if you are not interested in helping people, then why spend so long writing responses? I can’t help but interpret your intention here to enjoy yourself arguing and being mean.

Mmmm if only that were true. I constantly help out folks in the design community when requested, or if I feel that they could benefit from some input. I've let people use my textures over the years for old projects, help playtest maps/layouts, even recorded and edited a series some lopers put together in the past (and will forever be subject to an in-joke because I never finished the last episode!)

I've been far from mean my friend. I could of easily said "fuck off, we get a million of these threads, prove you're legit or gtfo". So I've been pretty patient & any criticism has been of a constructive nature and not just cheap shots. If I offended you by more-or-less saying 'Machinima Sucks'...well, OK? Be offended. You need to learn to be humble about your position rather than thinking you're in some way hot shit.

You surely must been catching on by now that I've been highly entertained by this whole thread, and that's my cause for responding. But I've had my fun, Someone take that tangible cash offer already!

[smashbits]

Hollow, no need to worry. You have not upset me by your disapproval of Machinima. I don’t expect those on this forum to appreciate content being produced for those a generation younger than them. I’m not even really a fan of most of our stuff myself. I also am not hurt by your mistrust of the company and OneyNG’s video which largely misunderstands the way Machinima works. It is a common theme for people today to mistrust big business – I get that – that’s fine and understandable. I am not offended here.

Your criticism though has definitely been less than constructive. What possibly offends me is that I interpret you as trying to be offensive. Your comment about humility, for example, how can anybody interpret that as constructive? How would you respond if I had said the very same thing to you? Are you trying to be offensive? Are you trying to win some sort of argument or are you authentically trying to help me?

Something you said though was perhaps very helpful. You said something about getting a lot of requests and a need to “prove you’re legit.” What do I need to prove this is legit? I can contract with the person and then pay them a portion up front – as any freelancer should expect. That is what clients are always expected to do to prove their legitimacy and I can deliver. Would this help you think?

[smashbits]

All,

The worst case scenario (worst possible case) is that the youtube video would get flagged and taken off youtube. There is no possible way this job could or would get tracked to the ripper. If the ripper wants some sort of “protection” in the contract they sign with me – we can do it. If you want, by contract, I would never tell anybody at Machinima who exactly ripped and compiled the content.

Do we have explicit permission for this exact rip? No. Getting permission for this would be a waste of time for everybody up and down the ladder for both companies. The relationship up top is what matters. If for whatever reason we find out that Riot didn’t like us using their model (for whatever reason) – they would discuss it up top and it would be a very simple fix; we take the video down and we learn that Riot has a very different approach then the rest of the video game world.

If this becomes a popular series – then it would be worth the time to explore those connections. Right now this is just a pilot. If it becomes popular with 500,000+ views per episode, Riot would probably reach out to Machinima and they would help me find a contact there at Riot who might work with me – like the way Bungie worked with the Red Vs Blue team. However, it takes time and an audience for those on top to think making those connections is worth the time.

We have no idea how much ripped content we can use in machinimation because there has never been a court case that has needed to look at the four factors of fair use. There has never needed to be a court case because, as I keep saying, the video game companies LOVE machinimation with their content. What they are worried about is the use of their ripped content in other video games.

Some said my response was “vague.” I agree because the issue itself is vague. The subject is not as easily defined as some here think. The “fair use” of ripped models in Machinimation is a legally grey area. The reason it’s not black and white is because it is clearly NOT an “ethically” grey area. Video game companies love it. It’s not like CD burning which for most musicians is clearly “stealing.” What we are doing we continue to do with blessing.

[Hollow]

Your criticism though has definitely been less than constructive. What possibly offends me is that I interpret you as trying to be offensive. Your comment about humility, for example, how can anybody interpret that as constructive? How would you respond if I had said the very same thing to you? Are you trying to be offensive? Are you trying to win some sort of argument or are you authentically trying to help me?

It's a little bit of column A and a little bit of Column B. Mostly because you seem to REALLY think I have some hidden agenda to personally attack you and it's quite possibly the funniest thing to me. Being humble is a very good trait to have, keeps you grounded. No idea how that can be interpreted as non-constructive or offensive criticism. Nobody likes a big 'ol E-peen flip-flopping about all over the place y'know.

If you said anything in retaliation, I'd unlikely bat an eyelid. You'd probably have to personally know me pretty well and dig deep before you got a provoked response.

You said something about getting a lot of requests and a need to “prove you’re legit.” What do I need to prove this is legit?

That comment was very clearly a sarcastic example of what I COULD of said to you if I was being a dick, hence the quotation marks.

Let me be frank. My desire to respond initially started with the fact that firstly, This thread, the title, the contents, has been asked exactly hundreds of times. Almost 90% of them have been a complete waste of time, with the requester in question being incredibly vague with regards to details, usually money related.

I commented, not because I was trying to white-knight or warn anybody here, but because I had seen this so many times & get tired of it. Yeah I'll admit I was being slightly douchey for my own entertainment. But nothing you had said up until probably your most recent replies had convinced me to A) stop de-railing or B) that you were being honest about the offer. Only your persistence made it more clear that is not the case.

The humble comment is linked to this. You come riding in to the community, with your first post as a producer on Machinima, a community which no one knows or has heard of you before, with a near identical request. Some people respond, you reply with some slightly egotistical remarks that sounded pretty patronising, such as telling us that you've been in the videogames entertainment industry for two years and that any legal issues are too complicated for our fickle little brains to comprehend. That people were simply scared to of helped out in the past when you asked around. There is no trust to start with if you're being vague, even if that was not your intent.

Anyways, that's not really the crux of the point or my attitude. Some of the members gladly offered you help even before I chipped in; try DXRipper in which you responded:

I actually have no clue what most of that means

.

If we want to talk about having some professional etiquette to entice potential modellers, that was not the way to reply. You could of at least googled it after the decent suggestion. I know Jman wasn't personally offended because he's a chill dude (sorry we sucked hard at Dota 2 last time :/), but I read that as just a really lazy reply.

He went on to recommend trying Facepunch as it is probably the more suitable community for your needs. I have no idea if you did, I'm assuming you didn't because you continued to post here. Which led to the post regarding you needing this work done within 24 hours and THEN, you publicly state a price.

If I was attempting to find some help on something, I'd make sure I did as much research into it beforehand, in regards to work required, hours needed, typical asking price, the best sites to look at etc etc. Anything and everything. Just so you don't step on your own toes and ask something silly. People are far more inclined to help if they feel confident you put in a little bit of effort yourself before enquiring, it's simple respect for a client really, to give you the impression you know what you're talking about & you know what is asked of them.

Look I get it probably wasn't on purpose, but it was an insanely sloppy way to drum up interest. If I genuinely was interested personally, I would of still been pretty skeptical. Just read back on your conduct in terms of the information you provided, and how you responded to each person. Half the time was trying to reassure them "no no, look it's fine, don't worry". The more you say that the harder it gets to believe. Why has no one decided to bite yet? On here or else where? And I really am being honest in my opinion here, I hope you can get your project done and find somebody, but, don't make a repeat of this sort of advertising if you don't already have the connections to help you out yet.

EDIT: You should of seriously opened your first post with that amount of honest information regarding the work in your most recent comment to everybody. None of this wonderful table tennis between me an you would of happened, but I'm glad it did <3

[smashbits]

Your last response is well received. Thanks for all the advice. I have little experience with this community and your guidance is very helpful.

I understand now this forum gets requests all the time. I had no idea the legal issues was that important since people here are already ripping content anyways. I agree my initial post could have been a lot more helpful. It would have been helpful if somebody actually did say, “prove you’re legit.”

Anyways, I don’t know anything about 3D modeling and I don’t really have the time to learn. I’m sorry if me saying that is offensive to people who do it full time. I’m sure all of the comments people made were helpful, but I thought they were giving those comments to each other to help whoever may be interested help me. If anything, I can copy those tips and use them in later posts when I am looking for somebody who can do this job.

I started on facepunch before I came here. I will explore there again. Is there anywhere else you think I might go to find assistance in this?

[Armageddon]

I haven't seen anyone ripping content themselves. Some people download Stalker texture packs, but that's kind of okay because Stalker itself stole some HL2 textures.

[nub]

I haven't seen anyone ripping content themselves. Some people download Stalker texture packs, but that's kind of okay because Stalker itself stole some HL2 textures.

I don't think GSC stole textures from Valve. Wasn't it concluded that both companies got the matching textures from the same licensed texture resource pack sold by a third party company? I thought it was entirely coincidental and that there weren't actually any problems?

Also, GSC openly stated long ago that they fully support porting and modifying of Stalker content, provided that credit is given where it was due.


Anyway, Smashbits, I'm glad you're taking Hollow's advice despite his shenanigans (that he's openly admitted to). It shows decent character in my opinion. But personally, two things prevent me from taking this job. One, and this is the main issue, is that my view on being paid to port/rip content from other games prevents me from taking such a job, and this will not change. Lastly, I'm still not fully convinced you are trustworthy on payment. $400 is enticing for a job like this. You said you'd pay a portion in advance, which is also a good sign. But how can you prove to your potential clients that you're good on your word? I'll be totally honest here and say that I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but my gut alone is just telling me that naming a price and an advanced payment, all of which is under contract, is not enough. This is just my gut telling me this. Not any kind of experience or knowledge in the area. Sorry if it offends you, as it's nowhere near my intention.

So to conclude, is there anything else you can tell us that will make you sound like a trustworthy person to do business with?

Also, and I have to ask, would the person doing this job be prohibited from releasing the ported content to the modding community free of charge?

[smashbits]

Nub,

Those are some great questions.

1. If you are uncomfortable doing the project for pay – you could do it for free. Then we can work together on another project you feel comfortable doing and I can pay you a very hefty price for that project instead. I personally don’t think this is necessary but it might be a way to make you feel more comfortable.

2. I have done work with over 40 consultants in the last two years (animators, voice actors, sound, directors, writers, etc). I can give you any of their contact information (as a reference) for any of them – including the ones who did not perform as I had hoped. Even when I don’t like the final product and went with a different consultant, I still paid the full amount to the first consultant.

3. As for whether or not the content could be provided to the modding community is an important question. I don’t think there is a way I could use the content myself and prohibit the ripper from sharing it. It’s not like we can negotiate “rights” for it. However, I think it would depend on the project, professional courtesy, and trust. Right now the advantage I would have over my competition (other LoL SFM projects on youtube) is that I have Summoner’s Rift and they don’t. That would be a pretty big advantage that my team and my boss thinks is worth paying for. If this model was distributed to others who could easily use it on SFM, it would be pretty hurtful to us. Other projects I might not mind so much if they were distributed but this project is important to us to keep private for now.

[Hollow]

I'm glad you're taking Hollow's advice despite his shenanigans

I love you too hee hee

Anyways, I am glad you have been receptive to the feedback at the very least. it does indeed show decent character.
I'm not really aware of too many places myself other than Facepunch for this sort of thing. Do Moddb have public forums? Steam forums? I've no idea.
I would highly go against suggesting Polycount or Mapcore, a far higher percentage of them are developers in the industry than here and they will likely shit on you several magnitudes harder for trying the "ol ripping content from vidya games request". Plus you don't want to bump into me again over on those forums probably, ho ho ho

[pk_hunter]

This thread has been equally entertaining on TWHL. For those interested, the League of Legends EULA has just been quoted.

...

Any use of the Software in violation of the license limitations set forth below is an unauthorized use of the Software outside of the license granted to you in Section I, and will be regarded as an infringement of the copyrights Riot Games holds in and to the Software and the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

...

B. Copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, derive source code from, or disassemble, in whole or in part, the Software or the Game, or create derivative works based on the Game, except that you are authorized to (i) make one (1) copy of the Software and the Documentation for personal archival purposes only; and (ii) use third party image and video capture software to capture the output of the Software as audio, video and/or still image files solely for personal, not for profit use pursuant to the Terms of Use and any applicable Riot Games policies pertaining to audio or video creation;

C. Modify or cause to be modified any files that are part of the Software in any way not expressly authorized by Riot Games;

...

It is entirely unambiguous that, without permission:
- Riot Games specifically does not approve modification, decompilation or reverse engineering of game files
- They also specifically do not approve of capturing video from the game and using it for profit

The legal status of a EULA is not something that I am interested or qualified in debating, but it is the closest thing to a legal contract that a developer has with their users. If you are certain that Riot Games loves machinima then you should have no problems getting approval. I don't know much about what being a producer entails but it seems that getting said approval would be your job.

[Hollow]

Oh wowzers.

[Smurftyours]

lol....