Bioshock Infinite - updated : 2/1/2013

[Epifire]

Just finished it, damn now I wanna find out more. The very end still is making my head hurt but I am gonna be thinking about this for a long while.

EDIT: Okay my head doesn't hurt so much now. The Bioshock: Infinite Wiki tells all and kinda brings the ending together more I think... http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock_Infinite

Makes me wonder now what lies in the DLC coming.

[nub]

If you haven't beaten the game yet, then don't click this link. But for those trying to understand the ending better, read this:

http://michaelthekyle.blogspot.com/2013 ... nding.html

It should also explain a few other things too. After you read that, you can read my two cents about the plot below:

A few of you mentioned how you felt like you were just "along for the ride." This is definitely true, but I personally think it was intentional. At the end, Elizabeth tells you that you've tried to rescue her hundreds of times and failed in each of them. In other words, the "loop." It wasn't until you were pulled through a tear by the elderly Elizabeth and given the letter with the bird cage on it that you started to deviate from the loop (I think). That leads up to you destroying the siphon with Songbird so that Elizabeth can use her full power to open tears to any reality at will rather than finding random tears to random dimensions. She mentions how she thinks tears are a sort of "wish fulfillment," which isn't entirely inaccurate. Though it's probably for a less magical and more scientific reason. When she was weakened by the siphon, the tears were random, but their appearance was still convenient. You could say her dire need for a simple solution to major problems was strong enough to bypass the siphon's restraints and create a convenient tear for her to open. That's my theory at least.

All this to say, the feeling of being dragged around sort of fits with the whole "looping reality" thing. It gives you and Booker a sense of having no control over his fate, since that's apparently the case unless Elizabeth intervenes.

[Epifire]

I dunno, it wasn't built around a multi-choice kind of design and I knew that first off from when I started playing it. Maybe I was just thinking about all the possibilities going on as to what could happen next but really except for one repetitive area, I didn't get that impression at all throughout any other point in the game.

To put it bluntly though (while not everyone else shares my view) I found the game to be very inspiring and really quite impacting and view changing as to how I think future games aught to be built. Splendid design though, and now I think I have become completely obsessed with the idea of the whole thing.

[Epifire]

Sorry for the double post but this needs some reckoning here. Alright so I noticed a big inconstancy in the end, just hear me out and see where I am coming from...

Did anyone else wonder why there was no Comstock at the drowning scene since Booker came through a tear upon intervention? I ask this because the inconsistency lies in the fact that there were definitely two Bookers (or Comstock and Booker) when Comstock is met in person and killed by Booker on the Hand of the Prophet. Also note that Booker had to be brought into the alternate version of time where Comstock was for him to be able to travel to Columbia in the first place.

Now you may say that while within your own time frame where you actually were in when a split occurred that you overlap the alternate version of you (meaning Booker could then be drowned killing Comstock for good). But bare with me now cause remember when Elizabeth is talking to you as you are picking her younger self out of her crib? Well I'll be dammed there wasn't any overlap cause there was younger and older Liz in that scene.

You may say that well hey what if younger to older has something to do with the overlap? Well the split of time frames at the Baptism occurred when Booker was much younger so he actually was older then either himself or Comstock at the time when he came through the tear. So what now? Cause either they meant it to be that way (for the sake of another story to fit in) or Irrational didn't think everything through in their massive story.

Note that Liz was not seen to fully disappear at the end because the camera cuts out on both the scene by the water and the one where Booker walks into her bedroom at the post credit scene. That'll give you something to think about now.

Had a hard time sleeping when I was thinking all of this over.

[Ark11]

Just finished (yeah, I took my sweet time), it was magnificent. It has a very different but equally as engaging atmosphere as its predecessor did. One thing that isn't clear to me:

Just one thing, how did Booker know how to get to Columbia? How did he know Columbia existed? Comstock knew about the other version of himself because of the Lutece's but Booker never met them. If the actual debt payment was baby Anna/Elizabeth, then who told him to go to get adult Anna/Elizabeth?

Also, a nice thing I noticed:

The piano music that plays in the Fink Factory was written by Frederic Chopin, who worked in a tobacco factory during a major uprising in Poland in 1794. A nice foreshadowing of the Vox uprising.

[Plague]

Just finished (yeah, I took my sweet time), it was magnificent. It has a very different but equally as engaging atmosphere as its predecessor did. One thing that isn't clear to me:

Just one thing, how did Booker know how to get to Columbia? How did he know Columbia existed? Comstock knew about the other version of himself because of the Lutece's but Booker never met them. If the actual debt payment was baby Anna/Elizabeth, then who told him to go to get adult Anna/Elizabeth?

He did not know how to get to Columbia, he was brought through by the Lutece twins which caused his memories to get messed up. As his mind made up new memories to explain the situation he came to 'find the girl and wipe away the debt' as his mission. This is why he mentions never hearing of Columbia, even though it actually is common knowledge in the Comstock universe.

[Epifire]

Some pointers about the end that really have been hot at the Irrational forums too...

If Elizabeth became an all powerful everywhere sort of being (like the Lutece twins) then did or did she not disappear at the end? Why does Booker immediately call out for Anna if in his own time line he knows she should be there? And lastly, is Anna there?

My thoughts is that Booker some how has some sort of memory of this, take Chen Lin and the others that died but some how remembered or had the impression of death in another time separate of their death? Yeah there is a lot of speculation to say that current living Booker knows something or has this memory impression. This very well could be an ending to try and create one of the biggest marketing ploys of all time. I mean who wouldn't want to find out what happened? Really good strategy if you ask me.

[Major Banter]

Playing through it again reveals a hell of a lot.

The Luteces make the point that "Elizabeth came from somewhere else, but left part of herself behind." Comstock's meddling, and subsequent accidental removal of her pinky finger has resulted in that 'left behind' part of her. Memories aren't sufficient - Elizabeth herself spans between universes, and this enables her to move between worlds freely thanks to that disconnection. The impacts of this are considerable.

Also, I initially found the "Booker is Comstock" twist a bit weaksauce, but now I'm seeing just how heavily it is foreshadowed. Comstock freely admits his baptism post-Wounded Knee, his comments when you first see hear him in the present cause a nosebleed, foreshadowing the cross-world nature of Comstock/Booker.

Something really fascinating I came across was the discussion about the bird/cage choice as well. Both ironically symbolise the exact opposite of their usual meaning - the bird is both freedom and the Songbird, the containment system for Elizabeth. The cage is control, but also indicates the siphon - once destroyed, Elizabeth is free. There are many other meanings besides, but they represent the duplicity of the world. They are both two things at once, but what two things they are changes with perspective. They are an analogue to Booker's submersion in the baptismal water, when he is neither sinner nor saint. The cage and the bird are neither freedom nor control - they are both, until they are removed entirely. Only then can Elizabeth be truly free.

[Major Banter]

Sorry for the double post but this needs some reckoning here. Alright so I noticed a big inconstancy in the end, just hear me out and see where I am coming from...

Did anyone else wonder why there was no Comstock at the drowning scene since Booker came through a tear upon intervention? I ask this because the inconsistency lies in the fact that there were definitely two Bookers (or Comstock and Booker) when Comstock is met in person and killed by Booker on the Hand of the Prophet. Also note that Booker had to be brought into the alternate version of time where Comstock was for him to be able to travel to Columbia in the first place.

First, Booker is not Comstock - Booker CAN BE Comstock.

Thus, have you considered that the Booker brought there is the potential Comstock? It would explain his apparently prophetic nature and so on - the only difference being that this time, Elizabeth is able to stop him.

It is notable that Booker is always Booker, no matter the universe. He's the source of the problem, and Comstock is the result. Booker must be removed, not Comstock. Thus only Booker can be present at the baptism, and therefore be himself, never Comstock. Comstock's death is of no consequence whatsoever - it just starts the whole thing off again.

Of course that creates a whole new set of paradoxes, but that's the fun of the story!

Oh, one final point!

I'm still kicking this one around my head - is Comstock's plan to actually stop the whole thing anyway? To kill Booker and end the cycle? Is that his real legacy? I'll chew this one over for a bit yet though.

[Epifire]

First, Booker is not Comstock - Booker CAN BE Comstock.

Thus, have you considered that the Booker brought there is the potential Comstock? It would explain his apparently prophetic nature and so on - the only difference being that this time, Elizabeth is able to stop him.

It is notable that Booker is always Booker, no matter the universe. He's the source of the problem, and Comstock is the result. Booker must be removed, not Comstock. Thus only Booker can be present at the baptism, and therefore be himself, never Comstock. Comstock's death is of no consequence whatsoever - it just starts the whole thing off again.

Of course that creates a whole new set of paradoxes, but that's the fun of the story!

Well I know that Booker is Booker and Comstock is Comstock but the point is each time you go into Comstock's time frame you actually see Comstock as a separate person you don't live in the place of Comstock. So there lies an inconsistency unless Liz has a way of placing you in some one else's shoes. You are still in Comstock's world at the end, and while Comstock is a variant of you it just kinda seems a little sudden and not so well thought out.

[Plague]

Well I know that Booker is Booker and Comstock is Comstock but the point is each time you go into Comstock's time frame you actually see Comstock as a separate person you don't live in the place of Comstock. So there lies an inconsistency unless Liz has a way of placing you in some one else's shoes. You are still in Comstock's world at the end, and while Comstock is a variant of you it just kinda seems a little sudden and not so well thought out.

The game never indicates that two people cannot exist in the same universe, it however indicates that by doing so they begin to share memories or in most cases the invading person gains them.

It's not really an inconsistency as we see Booker suffers the effects of being in the same universe as his counterpart(The nosebleeds).

[Armageddon]

This thread. It's racist.

[The A]

Playing through it again reveals a hell of a lot.

The Luteces make the point that "Elizabeth came from somewhere else, but left part of herself behind." Comstock's meddling, and subsequent accidental removal of her pinky finger has resulted in that 'left behind' part of her. Memories aren't sufficient - Elizabeth herself spans between universes, and this enables her to move between worlds freely thanks to that disconnection. The impacts of this are considerable.

Also, I initially found the "Booker is Comstock" twist a bit weaksauce, but now I'm seeing just how heavily it is foreshadowed. Comstock freely admits his baptism post-Wounded Knee, his comments when you first see hear him in the present cause a nosebleed, foreshadowing the cross-world nature of Comstock/Booker.

Something really fascinating I came across was the discussion about the bird/cage choice as well. Both ironically symbolise the exact opposite of their usual meaning - the bird is both freedom and the Songbird, the containment system for Elizabeth. The cage is control, but also indicates the siphon - once destroyed, Elizabeth is free. There are many other meanings besides, but they represent the duplicity of the world. They are both two things at once, but what two things they are changes with perspective. They are an analogue to Booker's submersion in the baptismal water, when he is neither sinner nor saint. The cage and the bird are neither freedom nor control - they are both, until they are removed entirely. Only then can Elizabeth be truly free.

I really like this explanation, I especially find the bird/cage metaphor neat. It also reminded me of the choices in the game and somethings said earlier on int the game by the Luteces. The fact that no matter what choice you make the events of the game still play out without any major deviation, which is an interesting metaphor for the combat as well. You have plenty of options, but you still have to go through that door or press that button. This analogy can also be brought to the ending of the game. Depending on what you chose or your own thoughts and opinions the ending has a different meaning or is interpreted differently, but the ending still happens.

Another thing that was neat was Booker's falsified memories at the beginning of the game because THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT THE PLAYER DOES. You get handed the box by the female Lutece and you immediately start filling in the blanks: "The box says Booker Dewitt, so I must be Booker Dewitt", "So I have to bring this girl to New York", "Ooh, a gun", etc.

The one of the things I'm still trying to figure out is if Booker didn't accept the Baptism, then Elizabeth is born. But if Booker dies at the Baptism then Elizabeth would never be born, so what does the post-credit thing mean? And why is it still black-and-white as if it were a flashback.

One thing I would like to see in DLC is more info on the rise of Comstock.

[Epifire]

Yeah I am hoping the DLC will shed some more light on all of this.

[Plague]

This was an interesting read, But the link at the end is even more impressive.
(spoilers in the first link.)