new computer...what do you recommend?

[Niserox]

Overclocking headroom varies between generations, models and single CPUs so much, you can't say "XXX overclocks better than YYY", unless you mean two specific models and have data to back up your claim.

Fine then, the Phenom series, more specifically, the Black Edition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Hf6d40 ... re=related
Currently runs the fastest and highest frequency for overclocking to date which is 7ghz. At half the price of Intel i might add? Also, notice how in that entire youtube sidebar, there isn't any Intel overclocking records or performance specs? Strange.. Oh well on to the next point.

This just confirms what I said about GPU and CPU bottlenecking.

My computer had a Nvidia 5500, his had an 8800 GTS. Though, many games tend to not take advantage of all four cores, or even 2 cores. Its all how their programmed.

Generalizations again. Certain ATI cards use less power than certain Nvidia cards, but not every ATI card takes less power than any Nvidia card. The same with performance.

You can talk about generalizations when 1/4 life just posted a while up this thread a clear chart for 2 games directly relating to the 5800/5900 series of graphics cards. Do you know how much a Nvidia BFG card goes for today $$? Well obviously it wouldnt seem worth it for the shitty 31 FPS it pumps in comparision to the 5970s 63 FPS?

No they don't. DDR3 memory uses lower voltage and usually eats much less power than DDR2 for the same performance or capacity.

This was COMPLETELY my fault, i actually have 2 sticks of DDR3 in my computer at the moment, and i actually have DDR3 memory almost right next to me on my desk, why i posted that is beyond me, i should've corrected it. (Thats what i get for writing at 2-3 in the morning).

Means nothing. This is true for most mid to high end motherboards, not only MSI or ASUS.

All i was saying was, that many motherboard designers tend to put in frequency locks and things to help keep your computer safe. I've had 3 different MSI boards and they've all let me blow my system apart if i really wanted to. Again, it was just a PERSONAL recomendation, not the one he should only try and look for. -_-;

BS again. Take a look at any VGA review on any respected tech site and find me a case where a whole PC with a single GPU would take 700W of power.

I have NO IDEA what your talking about it, did you agree with me? Might want to re-evaluate the sentence i typed, you could've read it wrong..

You don't get sound cards for perfmormance. You get them for sound quality over analog outputs and for features like Creative software.

Your agreeing with me again? I said the same as you, they DO NOT increase performance. Theres lots of people who believe it and i wanted to put that to rest.
http://www.mysuperpc.com/sound.shtml <--- like this idiot who says it'll increase performance by around 15%.
or hell, even WIKI says it will give better performance. Go read it.

BS again. 90% of the best performing CPU heatsinks are a combination of copper base and heatpipes with aluminum fins. Most full size cases today have 120 mm fans.

I found 2 different copper heatsinks right here:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/ ... &CatId=493
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/ ... &CatId=493

Both that come with pipes. I dont think you can even find one without them. Also, why the hell would he need a full size case for a basic single GPU, single/double HDD computer? That seems like a waste of money. Not like you really need them anyways. Some good Thermal Paste and a fan is more then enough for any system unless you plan to harshly overclock it?

Aaaaand teh same BS repeated again

yaaayy.. more bullshit. I love it. You cant tell me that you honestly think a CPU doesnt have a lot to do with most performance issues on todays gaming market? The video card and the CPU work hand in hand with one another, but i stated that even with the best video card GPU, a good CPU is always needed to keep up to scale on the 60+ FPS range. All of these stuttering problems many people see in games are because the CPU cant keep up.

Like i said, i remember when i had my single core that was OC'd to 2.5ghz, but had 3gigs of DDR2 ram, and a Radeon 4550. I was only getting like 90 FPS in CSS, and my computer was stuttering like hell in Starcraft II, And i couldnt get over 20 FPS in assassins creed II. Once i got a new dual core 2.8, that shit skyrocketed. Over 300 FPS in CSS, no more stuttering issues for starcraft, assassins creed finally hit around a 42 FPS benchmark. Saying that a GPU is better then a CPU or vice-versa is silly, i agree, i jsut feel that for today's gaming world, the CPU makes a massive difference in the FPS we like to see, and what we have.

Its also be because of the CPU's IPC rate, and the cache size. Why would you want anything under a 2mg of cache for gaming?

[xoqolatl]

Stuff that I didn't quote is either true or I didn't understand it.

Fine then, the Phenom series, more specifically, the Black Edition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Hf6d40 ... re=related
Currently runs the fastest and highest frequency for overclocking to date which is 7ghz. At half the price of Intel i might add? Also, notice how in that entire youtube sidebar, there isn't any Intel overclocking records or performance specs? Strange.. Oh well on to the next point.

I am very well aware of the current overclocked frequency records. That's how I know that the highest officially recorded x86 CPU frequency was on 8,2 GHz on Intel Celeron 347. I am also aware that Phenoms II are capable of very high frequencies, and that's because I tried it myself, as you can see by my validation of 6532 MHz on Phenom II X6 1090T.
I am also very well aware of AMD marketing viral videos showing extreme overclocking, and that's because I myself took part in their latest live streamed event, "AMD Black Ops", as a part of TeamPCLab.
But as I said, frequency is not a valid performance metric - you would know that if you visited Futuremark ORB and listed performance world records, which today all belong to Intel CPUs.

I found 2 different copper heatsinks right here:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/ ... &CatId=493
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/ ... &CatId=493

Both that come with pipes. I dont think you can even find one without them. Also, why the hell would he need a full size case for a basic single GPU, single/double HDD computer? That seems like a waste of money. Not like you really need them anyways. Some good Thermal Paste and a fan is more then enough for any system unless you plan to harshly overclock it?

That's why I said "90%", not "all". best performing CPU coolers, among which are Prolimatech Megahalems Thermalright TRUE-120, various Scythe models, are all aluminum fins and copper base and heatpipes. Those Zerotherms are far from "best bang per buck", "best bang per weight" or "best bang for size" awards.

You cant tell me that you honestly think a CPU doesnt have a lot to do with most performance issues on todays gaming market? The video card and the CPU work hand in hand with one another, but i stated that even with the best video card GPU, a good CPU is always needed to keep up to scale on the 60+ FPS range. All of these stuttering problems many people see in games are because the CPU cant keep up.

Yes I can honestly tell you I do think that. CPUs today are so powerful that a mid range cpu like Core i5-650 or Athlon II X4 is all you need for gaming. High end CPUs don't help in games, at least not enough to justify the price premium. High end CPUs are targeted at advanced users doing a lot of productivity and gaming, not at just gamers.

i jsut feel that for today's gaming world, the CPU makes a massive difference in the FPS we like to see, and what we have.

No, for todays gaming most of todays CPUs will do. Don't compare todays CPUs to single core antics you can't buy anymore - jgoodroad surely isn't considering such ship.

Its also be because of the CPU's IPC rate, and the cache size. Why would you want anything under a 2mg of cache for gaming?

Why would you care about cache size? why is 2 MB enough or to little? Do you know what cache is and what purpose it serves? Do you know that software doesn't care about cache?

[Niserox]

Can we stop this? -_- my hand is getting way to tired to keep up with all of this.

Listen, i think we both know a fair amount about computers and the way the work and that shit, i was just stating my 2 cents over the years of constant upgrading and benching on different systems, nothing more. Can we just get onto our recommendations?

Processor:

AMD Phenom II if you have the money, otherwise a good Athlon X2 is good for your gaming, especially for L4D2..

Motherboard:

Same as my other post, MSI. But if your buying off of a website make sure you read over the capabilities of each mobo and what the limitations it has or features it has. Such as Crossfire support, SLI support, how big it is, would it fit in your case, small things like that.

Video Card:

ATI Radeon Series, more specifically, a Sapphire card such as the Radeon 5000+ series.

RAM:

DDR2 dual channel (NEVER get DDR2 unless its dual channeled)
If you can afford the mobo and the socket, get DDR3

Always get 3 gigs or more.

PSU:

Unless you plan to have more then 1 video card in your system, a good 550 Watt should do the trick.

Heatsinks:

I think i read a while ago that you said you didnt know what it was, its the thing that keeps your CPU from becoming the Kalahari Desert. Like me and xoqolatl both agreed on (suprise) copper is the way to go. Get some thermal paste too, it costs like 8 bucks and will reduce your temperatures by around 10 celcius or so.

Case:

Any standard mid sized case will do you fine if you plan to only have a basic setup of 1 HDD, 1 video card, a CPU and around 3-4 gigs of RAM. If you plan to get 2 video cards, go for a full-sized case. You can always get a full-sized case now if you really wanted to, you have nothing to lose but some more money. (Remember, bigger cases usually need bigger fans).

As you can probably see, im an AMD fan-boy. AMD CPUs do run at a less wattage then Intel's do (im sure even xoqolatl can agree with me on this >_>) and usually cost less too. ATI video cards.. i've already stated my claim and 1/4 posted a nice chart to back it up.

Anyways thats mine. xoqolatl will probably give his recommendations soon too. GL with your new computer, and make sure your grounded. If you dont know how to ground yourself, you can either buy a proffesional kit for 20 bucks to do it, or when you put your PSU in your computer case, plug it in to the wall, it has a grounding plug on it, then get some wire and wrap it around your wrist while the other side is connected to your computer case, you'll be grounded.

Did.. i... miss anything..?

[1/4 Life]

I wouldn't go with an AMD processor right now. If you can afford them, Intel processors are out performing them almost 2:1 right now, and you'll need a good processor for modern games.

If you want an AMD CPU, wait until AMD gets competitive again. Right now they just cater to people with shallow wallets.

[xoqolatl]

Can we stop this? (...) Can we just get onto our recommendations?

Sure Peace, brother

I'll just quote Niserox and say what would I buy. Mind you, this might not be the best configuration for you - this is waht I would buy for myself if I were you. It's a cheap PC that will do good in common productivity (like mapping or graphics) and in games. You can get better or cheaper stuff, but this is roughly the best bang per buck point.

Processor:

I'd go with Phenom II 965 BE or Athlon II X4 635 (cheaper option).

Motherboard:

I'd get teh cheapest full featured AM3 socket board I can find. Full featured means for me: 2x PCI-E 16x slots (mechanical, not necessarily a total of 32 lanes), lan, FireWire, optical audio (TOSLINK), 6 or more SATA ports. A cheaper example would be MSI 890GXM-G65; a top end example would be Gigabyte 890FXTA-UD7 or ASUS Crosshair IV Formula.

Video Card:

I'd go for a HD5870 (find the brand that's the cheapest and has best RMA) or a HD5850 (cheaper option) or a HD5770 (even cheaper). HD5870 plays most games (excpt maybe Metro 2033 or latest Stalker) in 1920x1200 maxed or nearly maxed out. But if you native resolution is 1680x1050 or less a HD5770 or something in its range will do fine.

RAM:

For an AMD rig I'd go with a basic 4 GB kit at 1333 CL7 or 1600 CL7.

PSU:

Something like Corsair VX450 or HX520, or Enermax Pro82+.

Heatsinks:

Stock CPU heatsink is enough unless you want extreme silence or you plan to overclock the CPU. In that case do a Google translate of this page: http://pclab.pl/art38203-89.html from Polish to English and you'll see for yourself.

Case:

Get a case with good looks and good build quality, something like a lower end Antec (small option) or Cooler Master CM690 (bigger option).

and make sure your grounded. If you dont know how to ground yourself, you can either buy a proffesional kit for 20 bucks to do it, or when you put your PSU in your computer case, plug it in to the wall, it has a grounding plug on it, then get some wire and wrap it around your wrist while the other side is connected to your computer case, you'll be grounded.

Just touching to any big piece of metal (like the case) is enough, unless you're walking in woolen socks and sweaters on woolen carpets all the day.

Also, 1/4 life: no, AMD is not outperformed 1:4 by Intel. Don't use generalizations. If you have doubts (and you should have), go to a tech review site like Anandtech or TechPowerUp or TechReport or Hexus or Bit-Tech and see for yourself how do different CPUs in the same price range perform in various games.

[1/4 Life]

Also, 1/4 life: no, AMD is not outperformed 1:4 by Intel. Don't use generalizations. If you have doubts (and you should have), go to a tech review site like Anandtech or TechPowerUp or TechReport or Hexus or Bit-Tech and see for yourself how do different CPUs in the same price range perform in various games.

I said about 1:2, not 1:4.



AMD CPUs are really lacking right now, it's not a smart move to go with one. And keep in mind, I used to use AMD CPUs exclusively.

Considering Intel's high-end and budget quad core is just barely behind AMD's new 6 core CPU, something is seriously wrong.

I have experience as well. I have two 'main' PCs up and running. A Media Center PC, which has two ATI 4870s and the top of the line Phenom II X4 (Black edition), and a gaming PC, which has two ATI 5770s and an Intel Q6600.

The gaming PC gets a good 100 FPS in Bad Company 2, with very little CPU usage, while my Media center gets ~16 FPS in BC2, with 100% CPU usage. The 5770 and 4870 are equal in performance, and both systems run the same operating system.

[whiffen]

Ow, fuck it hurts to look at this thread.

I'll make it easy for you jgoodroad. Note I will be posting barebone systems. No Case, CD drives, monitors, input devices. Just the computer internals. I don't know if you already have these and want to keep them or not so I will skip them, its up to you.

Put priority on better CPU's and GPU's first (Everything will be ordered from cheapest to most expensive) then select the corresponding compatible motherboard; AMD with AMD, Intel with Intel. Then choose some memory which fits into your price range. Add a hard drive if needed. Look at the power supply needed for that system setup though the link.

Also Intel leading the market with he fastest chip should not have full influence over your decision. AMD offers very competitive processors at very low prices. 180$ for a 3.4Ghz 4 core unlocked processor is still a great deal to be had compared to Intels i920 which offers similar performance in gaming and many other benchmarks and sells for 280$, not to mention the more expensive socket 1366 motherboards you need with it. I'm not saying its better than the i7, but for a 260$ cpu mobo combo compared to a 440$ cpu mobo combo with similar results its easy to see why people still choose AMD.

Processor:

AMD: Phenom II X2 555 Black Edition, Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition, AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition
Intel: i5-750, i7-930, i7-980X

Benchmark comparisons, in order from i7-980x to Phenom II X2 555. (NOTE i7-930 not on list, chose i7-920 as they are closely related. Same story with the Phenom II X2 555. And the 6 core AMD is not listed either xD)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-desktop-cpu-charts-update-1/compare,1399.html?prod[2614]=on&prod[2617]=on&prod[2884]=on&prod[2780]=on&prod[2612]=on

URL doesn't want to work properly, so copy the whole link not just the first part that got hyperlinked.

Graphics card:

ATI: HD 5770, HD 5850, HD 5870, HD 5970

Benchmark comparisons, in order from 5970 to 5770.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-cards-charts-2009-high-quality/compare,1829.html?prod[3645]=on&prod[3646]=on&prod[3648]=on&prod[3651]=on

Motherboard:

Whats the difference between cheap and expensive motherboards? It doesn't do very much to your overall performance, in games at least, the more expensive ones offer more ports, connections, features and better overclocking ability. So its ok to choose a high end CPU and GPU and put it on a cheap motherboard if it suites your budget better.

AMD: ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO, ASUS M4A89GTD PRO/USB3, ASUS Crosshair IV Formula
Intel i5: GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3, ASUS P7P55D-E, ASUS P7P55D-E Pro
Intel i7: ASUS P6T SE, ASUS P6T, ASUS P6X58D-E, ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, ASUS P6X58D Premium, ASUS Rampage III Extreme

Memory:

AMD: Look for DDR3 dual channel
Intel: Look for DDR3 dual channel for i5, triple channel for i7

Got lazy so just look at what the motherboard you picked supports and choose accordingly. Corsair, OCZ, Patriot, G Skill, Kingston. Basically all of them are trustworthy, Corsair is generally more expensive compared to lets say G skill but the differences between the two are pretty minimal. (So long as the clock speeds are the same and the latency timings are close.) So just go for what fits your budget.

Hard Drive:

HDD: WD 500GB Black, WD 1TB Black, WD 2TB Black
SSD: Intel X25-M Mainstream 80GB

Power Supply:

http://educations.newegg.com/tool/psuca ... supply.jpg

Corsair and Antec have to be my favourite brands. Seasonic, OCZ, thermaltake, silverstone are good too. Don't cheap out on a PSU, it can cause you a lot of grief down the road. Cheaper PSU's are made of cheaper components which become more prone to failure over time, the wattage supplied might have some ripple which can cause random restarts and hangs. They also don't supply as much power to your 12v rails as more expensive ones do. (12v rail powers your CPU, GPU, hard drives, cd drives)

I got a little lazy at the end but hopefully I gave you some idea of what to look for. Oh and you don't need a cpu cooler unless your doing some serious overclocking.

[1/4 Life]

Ow, fuck it hurts to look at this thread.

I'll make it easy for you jgoodroad. Note I will be posting barebone systems. No Case, CD drives, monitors, input devices. Just the computer internals.

Beautiful, A++.

[xoqolatl]

[image]
AMD CPUs are really lacking right now, it's not a smart move to go with one. And keep in mind, I used to use AMD CPUs exclusively.
Considering Intel's high-end and budget quad core is just barely behind AMD's new 6 core CPU, something is seriously wrong.
I have experience as well. I have two 'main' PCs up and running. A Media Center PC, which has two ATI 4870s and the top of the line Phenom II X4 (Black edition), and a gaming PC, which has two ATI 5770s and an Intel Q6600.
The gaming PC gets a good 100 FPS in Bad Company 2, with very little CPU usage, while my Media center gets ~16 FPS in BC2, with 100% CPU usage. The 5770 and 4870 are equal in performance, and both systems run the same operating system.

1. Duh, PCMark Vantage, Intel compiler optimisations galore. Let's try real world benchmarks, and try not to handpick, ok? I happen to earn for a living by reviewing CPUs. You can't outwit me here
2. @ BC2: here you go, a comparison of CPUs in BC2 by PC Games Hardware. Phenom 965 > Q6600. Something's seriously wrong when your high end machine gets 16 fps in current game.
3. Intel's quad core Core i7 is not just a quad core. Intel dedicated lots of die area and power consumption to the implementation of SMT. AMD chose to dedicate additional die area and power budget to add two cores.

EDIT: oh, whiffen, A++

[whiffen]

Ow, fuck it hurts to look at this thread.

I'll make it easy for you jgoodroad. Note I will be posting barebone systems. No Case, CD drives, monitors, input devices. Just the computer internals.

Beautiful, A++.

I know xD Probably not much nicer or easy to look at. Oh well

Would have worked better if I could hyperlink

[jgoodroad]

Ow, fuck it hurts to look at this thread.

I'll make it easy for you jgoodroad. Note I will be posting barebone systems. No Case, CD drives, monitors, input devices. Just the computer internals.

Beautiful, A++.

I know xD Probably not much nicer or easy to look at. Oh well

Would have worked better if I could hyperlink

thanks, I almost threw this thread out when two lopers started having an argument...which invalidated the accuracy of both accounts.