Are we Free?

[slayera]

About drugs, the reason marajauana was made illegal in the US in the first place was because of decreased productivity. Have you seen the anti-pot commercials that are saying pot dosen't harm you, it makes you boring? I think they are spot on.

I also agree that alcohol should be made illegal, but we already tried that and it didn't work. I say that because my dad is an alcoholic, and it's ruined half of my family. I just want to stay away from it.

You are so ignorant. Like Mr. Happy said "Marijuana was originally made illegal because of racism." It was to put pressure on blacks and mexicans. Before that people used it just fine for thousands of years, same for coke. The cocca leaf has been use in South American since people have lived there, but by making it illegal, but the cartels had to concentrate it to make any real money. They are millions of very productive persons who smoke pot or use illegle drug and you would never know it.

I am sorry for your dad, he truely needs to seek help. But why should it be made illegal for the rest of us, I like to go out on weekends once in while and have couple beers and shoot some pool and toss the darts. Other than that I don't touch it.

There is big difference between use and abuse. Humans have free will and need to teach themselves self control.

[DrGlass]

Marijuana was originally made illegal because of racism. If you've ever seen anti-drug reels from the 1910-s-1930'2 you'd know this to be true. They showed blacks and mexicans smoking marijuana and then going on murderous rampages. The laws were first enacted in the south, expecially in small towns, where mexican immigration was high and blacks were hated (remember this was within 50-70, or 2-3 generations, of the emancipation proclamation)

firedfns13: ONLY heroin, opium, and china-white, the three worst drugs, support terrorism. Meth is made by retarded conservative rednecks, most marijuana is grown in the United States, cocaine is produced by cartels with no political agenda outside their own area, chemical drugs are not widely used, nor expensive enough to support a violence based black market economy.

Gang violence from marijuana and cocaine importers, and crack distributers have little to no impact on the average citizen and is not terrorism.

slayera, nice quote I love it

/Agree

What really needs attention in school is information skills. When you say "drugs support terrorism" you are repeating [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda]Propaganda[/url students should be made aware of sources and fact checking, in an age where information is so open and free. And our government shouldn't be feeding us this kind of propaganda, because most of us aren't going to research information we think we can trust.

back to drugs, I was thinking about this and here is my little logic: Person A abuses [this] while Person B is responsible with [this], the government makes [this] illegal because of person A and sends person B to jail for [this]. Thus Person A's actions caused the incarceration of Person B, which impedes on Person A's pursuit of liberty and justice...

[firedfns13]

meh it still affects people
you cant say that marajuana and similiar plants dont support terrorism in some way, because rebel fighters in Somalia would smoke it and then go fight because they felt invincible; same went for many fighters found in falujah, they were found on heroin and other drugs
but yes marijuana was probably first enforced for racism
i dont like that
but i still think its a bad drug, and should be banned.
Too many people have ruined and wasted their lives because of it.

[Spas12]

"See, I think drugs have done some *good* things for us, I really do. And if you don’t believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a Favor: go home tonight and take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your cd’s and burn em’. 'Cause you know what? The musicians who’ve made all that great music that’s enhanced your lives throughout the years...
Rrrrrrrrrrrrreal fucking high on drugs."

-Bill Hicks

"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times."

- Bill Hicks

<3 Bill Hicks R.I.P.

[Mr. Happy]

I wish this thread hadnt turned into a discussion on drugs, since theres too much ignorance on both sides (mainly non-users though due to lack of education about FACTS)

meh it still affects people
you cant say that marajuana and similiar plants dont support terrorism in some way, because rebel fighters in Somalia would smoke it and then go fight because they felt invincible; same went for many fighters found in falujah, they were found on heroin and other drugs
but yes marijuana was probably first enforced for racism
i dont like that
but i still think its a bad drug, and should be banned.
Too many people have ruined and wasted their lives because of it.

The "terrorists" in the middle east and in somalia aren't fighting because their high, they aren't fighting because they feel "invincible." They're fighting for religious and political reasons. In Irag they have every right to kill each other, the US installed the government and if they don't like it, they have the right to kill those who do to change it. My god, in the US CONSTITUTION there is a paragraph (dont feel like looking it up) that says that as AMecians if we feel like our government is not serving us well enough, we have the right to take up arms and overthrow it! of course, if anyone tried doubtless the gov. would call it "domestic terrorism" or "illegal insurgency"

as for sudan, well, they have the right to claim territory in a power struggle although they obviously take it to far what with the massacres, ethnic cleansings, the forced labor, female-sex-slaves, etc. makes me so sad to think about.

the only drugs that make you feel "invincible" are stimulants such as cocaine, and meth. (please no one bring up trips, they can make you feel like anything)

stimulants are not used in those areas. marijuana and opium/heroin, at the most basic level make you feel tired, happy, and contented. guess what, a real heroin/opium high makes you fall asleep. now THATS a recipee for murder, right? ha!

and are you suprised that drugs have been found in their systems? does it suprise you to know that hashish (a concentrated form of marijuana resin) smoking and eating and opium smoking (which implies heroin) are a major part of their culture and have been for thousands of years? does it suprise you to know that drug use was a major component of almost EVERY culture until the christian cleansing of rational thought?

let's see we have the UK-region (nightshade, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. biggest druggies ever=celts) and then accidental ergot(the precursor to LSD) ingestion lead to visions of dragons in the middle ages, Indian region (hashish), southern native americans (peyote), any time you hear have the "peace pipe" thats nicotania rustica, a hallucigenic tobacco, in mexico there was salvia divinorum, south america was cocoa leaf, and B. Caapi-P. Harmala mixtures, marijuana and opium in vietnam and surrounding countries, need I go on?



it's not terrorism if your trying to establish a government.

[dragonfliet]

talkity talk...south america was cocoa leaf,

You mean coca, not cocoa. Just wanted to clarify that they aren't getting high on cocoa puffs.

~Jason

P.S. Using history is a poor argument. Infanticide was present in essentially every major culture at some point (Romans didn't pass a law--that they didn't enforce--until the middle of the 4th century), human sacrifices, slavery, etc. The fact that ancient peoples used drugs doesn't justify them.

I'm not getting involved in this silly debate, I just figured I'd point out a fallacious argument.

~Jason

[slayera]

talkity talk...south america was cocoa leaf,

You mean coca, not cocoa. Just wanted to clarify that they aren't getting high on cocoa puffs.

~Jason

P.S. Using history is a poor argument. Infanticide was present in essentially every major culture at some point (Romans didn't pass a law--that they didn't enforce--until the middle of the 4th century), human sacrifices, slavery, etc. The fact that ancient peoples used drugs doesn't justify them.

I'm not getting involved in this silly debate, I just figured I'd point out a fallacious argument.

~Jason

MMM... I love snorting Coco Pebbles, it's the milk I don't like! (thx for correction, I have been listening to audio books while I try to type)

I understand the point you are trying to make. But on the on other side of the coin you say we should give up the good side history taught us too. Good or bad, morals or what history teaches us are subjective from the person observing it.

[dragonfliet]

I understand the point you are trying to make. But on the on other side of the coin you say we should give up the good side history taught us too. Good or bad, morals or what history teaches us are subjective from the person observing it.

I don't mean that we should ignore history, I'm simply saying that pointing a finger to the past and saying: but THEY did it! is a weak argument, as it has no frame of reference other than someone else did it in the past. You guys feel free to debate which study is better than which study all day, or argue drugs in wars, I'm just saying an occurrence without context means nothing.

~Jason

[Mr. Happy]

the history wasnt really my point, my point was that those drugs dont support terorism and fighting to change your government isnt terrorism either.

the history is just something you dont learn in school



my real point is that this discussion had more people, and more short, more interesting, more readable posts, and was just generally better when it wasnt about drugs, even if it had been Dr. Glass's original idea for discussion.


what do you guys think about the PATRIOT acts?

[Boognish]

About drugs, the reason marajauana was made illegal in the US in the first place was because of decreased productivity. Have you seen the anti-pot commercials that are saying pot dosen't harm you, it makes you boring? I think they are spot on.

I also agree that alcohol should be made illegal, but we already tried that and it didn't work. I say that because my dad is an alcoholic, and it's ruined half of my family. I just want to stay away from it.

You are so ignorant. Like Mr. Happy said "Marijuana was originally made illegal because of racism." It was to put pressure on blacks and mexicans. Before that people used it just fine for thousands of years, same for coke. The cocca leaf has been use in South American since people have lived there, but by making it illegal, but the cartels had to concentrate it to make any real money. They are millions of very productive persons who smoke pot or use illegle drug and you would never know it.

I am sorry for your dad, he truely needs to seek help. But why should it be made illegal for the rest of us, I like to go out on weekends once in while and have couple beers and shoot some pool and toss the darts. Other than that I don't touch it.

There is big difference between use and abuse. Humans have free will and need to teach themselves self control.

About the pot, I'm just relaying what I've been taught. I can take most insults, but ignorant isn't one of them. Don't call me that anymore.

And about the alcohol, I'm not much of an acivist in my beliefs(on that front), I mostly don't care about it as long as it dosen't affect me. But I had had a bad day the day I made that post involving my father and alcohol. Most of the time, I'm not that quaker-ish. I apoligize for taking my feelings out on this discussion, and for letting it cloud my judgement.

[slayera]

Ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorant just means you you don't know. It was never an insult and I never meant any hard feelings.

About the pot, I'm just relaying what I've been taught.

All the more to learn about everything. You should always question what you know and know what you question.

As for marijuana/drugs in general, it is really hard to find real facts, even from doctors, you will not heard the same thing from any two. You will have to find middle ground for yourself.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b1 ... larke.html

This seems like a good piece of information, standing alot on the facts, with cited sources. And I am in no way suggesting you should ever smoke pot, especially as a teen.

[Boognish]

Lol.

No hard feelings.

I know what ignorant means, it just usually has a negative/insulting connotation.

Did I spell that right?

And you might enjoy this, a MySpace freind posted it.

Two recent studies should be the final nails in the coffin of the lie that has propelled some of this nation's most misguided policies: the claim that smoking marijuana somehow causes people to use hard drugs, often called the "gateway theory."

Such claims have been a staple of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy under present drug czar John Walters. Typical is a 2004 New Mexico speech in which, according to the Albuquerque Journal, "Walters emphasized that marijuana is a 'gateway drug' that can lead to other chemical dependencies."

The gateway theory presents drug use as a tidy progression in which users move from legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco to marijuana, and from there to hard drugs like cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine. Thus, zealots like Walters warn, marijuana is bad because it leads to things that are even worse.

It's a neat theory, easy to sell. The problem is, scientists keep poking holes in it -- the two new studies being are just the most recent examples.

In one National Institute on Drug Abuse-funded study, researchers from the University of Pittsburgh tracked the drug use patterns of 224 boys, starting at age 10 to 12 and ending at age 22. Right from the beginning these kids confounded expectations. Some followed the traditional gateway paradigm, starting with tobacco or alcohol and moving on to marijuana, but some reversed the pattern, starting with marijuana first. And some never progressed from one substance to another at all.

When they looked at the detailed data on these kids, the researchers found that the gateway theory simply didn't hold; environmental factors such as neighborhood characteristics played a much larger role than which drug the boys happened to use first. "Abusable drugs," they wrote, "occupy neither a specific place in a hierarchy nor a discrete position in a temporal sequence."

Lead researcher Dr. Ralph E. Tarter told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, "It runs counter to about six decades of current drug policy in the country, where we believe that if we can't stop kids from using marijuana, then they're going to go on and become addicts to hard drugs."

Researchers in Brisbane, Australia, and St. Louis reached much the same conclusion in a larger and more complex study published last month. The research involved more than 4,000 Australian twins whose use of marijuana and other drugs was followed in detail from adolescence into adulthood.

Then -- and here's the fascinating part -- they matched the real-world data from the twins to mathematical models based on 13 different explanations of how use of marijuana and other illicit drugs might be related. These models ranged from pure chance -- assuming that any overlap between use of marijuana and other drugs is random -- to models in which underlying genetic or environmental factors lead to both marijuana and other drug use or models in which marijuana use causes use of other drugs or vice versa.

When they crunched the numbers, only one conclusion made sense: "Cannabis and other illicit drug use and misuse co-occur in the population due to common risk factors ( correlated vulnerabilities ) or a liability that is in part shared." Translated to plain English: the data don't show that marijuana causes use of other drugs, but instead indicate that the same factors that make people likely to try marijuana also make them likely to try other substances.

In the final blow to claims that marijuana must remain illegal to keep us from becoming a nation of hard-drug addicts, the researchers added that any gateway effect that does exist is "more likely to be social than pharmacological," occurring because marijuana "introduces users to a provider ( peer or black marketeer ) who eventually becomes the source for other illicit drugs." In other words, the gateway isn't marijuana; it's laws that put marijuana into the same criminal underground with speed and heroin.

The lie that marijuana somehow turns people into junkies is dead. Officials who insist on repeating it as a way of squelching discussion about common-sense reforms should be laughed off the stage.

[DrGlass]

PATRIOT act:
Everyone go out and find "Atomic Cafe" it chronicles US propaganda from the 1920' to Nam.
Also, check out that new movie "the good Shepard" not so fact based but it draws an accurate general picture. We the People are the rulers of this country and every time we allow the government to take away our power or freedom (point of this whole thread) we commit the ultimate sin against the US... this also goes for anyone else I suppose, if you don't hold onto your liberty you shouldn't have any.
The "Patriot" act is nothing that it name employs. Its a tool to attack minorities (gays, blacks, left winger's, even far right winger's) Guess where you name ends up if you join a gay rights group? or a communist party?
What I like to search on google, or what kind of newspaper comes to my house is not information the government. I don't care if they catch a few pedophiles, there is no excuse to give up liberty. Once you give "them" something they will want something more. Sad thing is that we are already heading down that road.

but i still think its a bad drug, and should be banned.
Too many people have ruined and wasted their lives because of it.

Here is the point I REALLY want to make clear. Drugs are bad for you, YES, duh! but most drugs are not as bad as we are lead to believe. There are many legal drugs that are just as bad and much worse. *Do you know how much sugar is in soda!? and most people drink like 6 cans a day!* not to mention tobacco. The point is If you are Free, you should have the freedom to make any bad choices, the government should not MAKE THOSE CHOICES FOR YOU. The government should educate citizens with information free from spin.

***If you have any questions about any drugs here is the #1 100% unbias site for information http://www.erowid.org/ ***

[Boognish]

Amen! I couldn't have put it better myself.

[zombie@computer]

People are too stupid to think for themselves. Though a single human is much smarter than a sheep, the IQ of a mass of people isnt much higher than that of a flock of sheep. You can't even imagine how stupid people can be. For instance, do you know how many people come to the first aid dept of a hospital to remove bottles from bodily cavities they inserted with the thick part first, making it impossible to get them out again? Its a lot. A FUCKING LOT. Even i've seen one, and i havent even been working in the hospital for more than 2 months combined.
Freedom cannot exist in a world where more than 1 person lives. I can't just do what i want, because there is a big chance it will limit the freedom of others. That's where the role of the government comes in. They must find a line where one's freedom ends, and the freedom of his fellowmen starts. Without laws, anarchy exists, and noone will be free but fighting for his/her life. I dont know about you, but im very much willing to pay a part of my freedom for safety and security.

Im not saying this patriot act is good or not, or that drugs should be illegal or not, im just saying its stupid to wish for total freedom, as it is impossible. You are allways bound to laws to enable life, even if its just nature's laws.