Are we Free?

[Sauce]

well, if you really want to drive around in a car whilst high / drunk, and have nobody stop you from doing it, or owning drugs / banned substances, then go ahead and find yourself a desert island, populate it with babies that you made with incest sex with your sister (you married her) and form a little society of your own.

now, this is serious discussion so there has to be a point behind all that crap I just said or it will probably be deleted, so I would just like to say, that within weeks that society would fail, and everyone would be dead.

[KILLA-COW]

What is free? If we were truly free wouldnt we be bound to disaster by freedom itself?

[Shr3d]

What is free? If we were truly free wouldnt we be bound to disaster by freedom itself?

We're talking about democratic freedom. Not anarchy.

[firedfns13]

noo I did not mean they fought simply because they were high, they fought for their ideals, yes. But as our troops drove up and sieged Falujah, they took Herion in order to be able to stand their ground, take 15 bullets before letting go of their Ak triggers...
I'm saying that without the heroin that was supplied there, that the people with the Ak's would not have probably killed as many US soldiers. Its like artificial andrenaline.

And yes i am very clearly ignorant... You know if you want to go around, drinking, smoking, driving, go ahead, but you are going to have to deal with teh consequences when you total your car, drive through someones bedroom, slam into a van and kill a baby.
Maybe if their werent so many idiots or addicts in the world drugs would be legal, but they are legal for reasons.

And cocain was never used by natives as the addicting powder, as far as i know.
They chewed on it as they climbed the Andes and stuff to calm down and breathe right.

[slayera]

And cocain was never used by natives as the addicting powder, as far as i know.
They chewed on it as they climbed the Andes and stuff to calm down and breathe right.

That was basically what I was saying, but you put it in words much better than I. I don't think I was very clear.

[DarkDemonenator]

Your only as free as you make it.

[DrGlass]

There is a vast difference between absolute freedom on personal liberty. I agree, more than one person can not exist in a "free-for-all" state but we can exist in a state that allows its citizens absolute PERSONAL liberty/freedom.

1.) addicts don't make drugs a "bad" thing, there are always going to be addicts. I mean, shit, if they are an addict then DUH they are using the drug. If it were legal the government could put them in rehab rather than tossing them in jail for being dependant on an illegal substance (which costs YOU the tax payer HUGE amounts of money).

2.) Take a look at per-capt alcohol related deaths in France or china compared to the US. I'm willing to bet that they don't have much more than the US and they have no drinking age.

3.) Saying that people in general are "too stupid" to control their own life is about the most repugnant thing you can say. Who are you to even say that, the general public can seem very daft at times but to think they are "too stupid" to take care of themselves is just dumb. Plus most people don't take care of themselves, hence all the smokers and fat people in the world. Law restricting the stupid from hurting themselves isn't going to stop stupid, education is.

The war on drugs costs a MASSIVE amount of money (I think they go over that in the link at the very top of this thread) if the US put that money into education and didn't fill education with puritan propaganda maybe people wouldn't disrespect themselves.

Want to talk about stupid, talk about "abstanace only" schooling. Which is a death sentence for many teens who get HIV because the church didn't want them to learn about condoms...

Honestly I think that I hold the absolute correct view point on this, but I'm sure people who don't agree can come up with something better than "people are stupid so don't deserve personal freedom"...

[zombie@computer]

I agree, more than one person can not exist in a "free-for-all" state but we can exist in a state that allows its citizens absolute PERSONAL liberty/freedom.

Where does PERSONAL liberty/freedom and, and where does its PUBLIC brother start? They largely overlap, what to do with that? If i want to throw myself in front of the train thats fine by you, because thats PERSONAL liberty, but what about the train drivers' freedom? Does he not have the right of trauma-free train driving?

Saying that people in general are "too stupid" to control their own life is about the most repugnant thing you can say. Who are you to even say that, the general public can seem very daft at times but to think they are "too stupid" to take care of themselves is just dumb. Plus most people don't take care of themselves, hence all the smokers and fat people in the world. Law restricting the stupid from hurting themselves isn't going to stop stupid, education is.

Do you think people are smart enough to live without laws? Do you know what happens in times of war (When law is no more)? People looting and rape... Yes, i would very much like these people to not be hindered by laws. Offcourse these people are educated enough to know raping and looting is bad and causes bad things. Did it stop them? When new Orleans got flooded, did this knowledge stop people from looting? Would better education have prevented this?
Another example is classes. There will always be a difference in richer and poorer. Just as we always need doctors, we will also always need guttercleaners. Etc. The poorer may get jealous, and even steal or do other bad things because of it. Do you really think education can prevent that? Sif these people have no idea stealing is bad? gimme a break.
Is it dumb to say people are too stupid to control their own life? perhaps. Can you prove the contrary? Can you prove people can live freely without laws but with abundant education? I know i can say, seeing previous examples, people can live with laws in relative freedom.

[DrGlass]

Where does PERSONAL liberty/freedom and, and where does its PUBLIC brother start? They largely overlap, what to do with that? If i want to throw myself in front of the train thats fine by you, because thats PERSONAL liberty, but what about the train drivers' freedom? Does he not have the right of trauma-free train driving?

First of all, there is no law that says you can't toss yourself in front of a train. If a "Personal" liberty affects another person (in a more rational way that the one you've suggested) than it ISN'T a Personal liberty. A person can drink beer till they can't walk, but if they then jump behind the wheel of a car -endangering other people- then they have broken the law. Once a PERSONAL liberty, like drinking as much as you want, affects the liberty of others, then a law is broken.
Now, if another person smokes some pot at their house, they have broken the law. Does that make any sense to you? Two "mind altering" substances, yet one is legal as long as you don't endanger other people, while the other is ILLEGAL no matter what...

Do you think people are smart enough to live without laws? Do you know what happens in times of war (When law is no more)? People looting and rape... Yes, i would very much like these people to not be hindered by laws. Of course these people are educated enough to know raping and looting is bad and causes bad things. Did it stop them? When new Orleans got flooded, did this knowledge stop people from looting? Would better education have prevented this?

ALL law broke down in New Orleans, rape and looting are not PERSONAL liberty, those are actions that attack other people. That is what LAW is for, to protect YOU (the free person) from things like that. If there is no law then it is a FREE-FOR-ALL, what I want to see in the US is freedom for people to do what ever they want to, to themselves. You are free to eat Mcdonalds 3 times a day for the rest of your life so you should be free to smoke crack for the rest of your life. Neither are "smart" choices, but if people are educated with honest facts about these things then they will be less inclined to hurt themselves.

Another example is classes. There will always be a difference in richer and poorer. Just as we always need doctors, we will also always need guttercleaners. Etc. The poorer may get jealous, and even steal or do other bad things because of it. Do you really think education can prevent that? Sif these people have no idea stealing is bad? gimme a break.

You think crime is the result of jealousy? First of all, the poor are not the only class that commit crime. Look at ENRON, the people who committed crime there were millionaire's, they didn't need anymore money...
If you're an inner city kid and you have two choices, work at Burger King for $6 an hour or sell drugs for $1000 a day, what makes more sense? You said it yourself just as we always will need doctors we will also need gutter cleaners, or garbage men, or teachers, or police... what if the country treated these jobs with more respect so people weren't FORCED into crime. Do you think kids grow up wanting to be drug dealers or muggers?

Is it dumb to say people are too stupid to control their own life? perhaps. Can you prove the contrary? Can you prove people can live freely without laws but with abundant education? I know i can say, seeing previous examples, people can live with laws in relative freedom.

First off, I'm not saying that we should abolish all laws, maybe you misunderstood. Secondly, you are right "relative freedom" is the word. So what if some 19 year old gets tossed in jail for smoking a little dope, or a father of three can't break his addiction to Meth because if he goes to the government for help they will throw him in jail. Or having your house searched with out a warrant...
Yeah we are living in "relative freedom" all right, but why shouldn't we start making life better? The status quo isn't really hot shit right now. And again I agree, many of the 300 million USA citizens aren't smart, smart enough to see that we aren't living in the kind of land where people can live how they want in their personal pursuit of happiness and liberty.

[Sorrow]

I know this is giant ass kissing, but great reply.