VA Tech and the Mental Health Care System

[Mr. Happy]

Since the other VA tech thread had to be closed, I decided to make another one. I think that the issue of gun control has been fully explored there, and I don't really want to bring that discussion back since it created so much hostility and, well, has been locked.

There is another side to the whole issue however, that of the dysfunctional health-care system in the USA, in particular, the mental-health component which barely even exists.

I think the biggest problem that contributed to the shooting was that Cho didn't get the care he needed. Alot of people with serious anti-social, psychotic, or schizeophrenic problems have a neurological (not just psychological) dysfunction which prevents them from looking at themselves in an objective light and asking "do I have a problem? are these normal thoughts?"

Add to this a system in which insurance companies barely cover mental health problems, medication regimines that can top $800 a month, the lack of hospital beds for non physical illnesses, the stigma associated with what is a DISEASE, the inability for others to help bring someone into treatment against their will (when neccessary of course) and the simple fact that the majority of mental health issues, treatment, and diagnoses have unfortunately, non-intentionaly, and detrimentally, come under the purvue of the criminal justice system and we have a real problem. Not just because of the propensity for incidents like this in recent years, but also for the day to day mental health needs of the general public, and those with less severe concerns.

And thus this thread is born, may it generate an intelligent discussion in an area that I doubt has room for passionate insultation. And please, keep the guns out of it.

[Persol]

I'm going to leave the cost of mental healthcare alone because I have no idea how much it costs and, like you said, I doubt someone like Cho realized how sick he was.

People like Cho get mental help for two reasons:
- family/friends convince them
- the legal system forces them

Family/friends are definitely the best option... and I think the isolation Cho had probably caused many of his issues, but certainly limited how many people noticed and could influence him. I can't think of anyway to fix this though... society has always had problems with this.

At the same time, legally forcing someone to get care shouldn't be easy. Institutionalizing a person is the equivalent of imprisonment. Is it right to force/punish someone for something you think they are thinking? It seems a very slippery slope. What is 'just cause' for forcing someone to get treatment?

If the person makes threats, then that's just cause... but at that point he'd be breaking the law anyway. What 'pre-crime' action is enough to justify it?

[Dionysos]

...

What 'pre-crime' action is enough to justify it?

Here, I *think* doctors can order forced institutionalizing for a certain period of time (like over night or a couple of days etc) when there is enough reason to believe the person is a danger to others or himself. A suicide attempt would do. This is totally reasonable I think. Although, I doubt how much it would have helped in this case.

[Rustvaar]

I recall many news stations stating (and I paraphrase, here) that the police knew long before that Cho was 'troubled'.

Personally I find that nonsense and nothing but a means to put the police-force down; hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am quite a strange guy, quirky if you will - Now I say a lot of things that should be taken with more than a pinch of salt. Not to say that I lie, but it's more a case of, I exaggerate and blow things out of proportion for the benefit of humour. At times I do have some odd moments that leave even myself wondering "Have I gone too far?"

I like what Persol is saying about "punishing someone for someone you think they are thinking", I think that's the difference between people like myself and Captain Joe Psychotic MSc (Advanced Rampaging Technologies) - I think silly, odd, worrying things. I don't act upon them.

However for having these thoughts am I a danger? Should I of all people be locked up?

What 'pre-crime' action is enough to justify it? There probably isn't any, to be fair. Right now I'm quite happy with life; all it takes is tomorrow I get a few too many downs and not enough ups and I snap and tear through the local township with a bread-knife.

Will people be saying "Oh, we should have known" or "Blame the parents"?. I may have said things that maybe, could have slightly hinted at how I'd react; but then there are people who say they'll go to the Moon someday, it doesn't mean they will.

Edit: Tidied up some garish spelling errors.

[Sorrow]

What exactly was the matter ? I heard he had some GF issues and something against rich kids picking on him basically?

[Persol]

Here, doctors can order forced institutionalizing for like over night or a couple of days when there is enough reason to believe the person is a danger to others or himself

It's the same here, but varies by state. This seems to be the usual:

Doctor must verify three things:
1) You are mentally ill.
2) Either you are dangerous to yourself or others
3) You need immediate treatment for mental illness

The hospital must release you after fifteen days unless ordered by a judge.


That all sounds reasonable... but you can't prove #2 until after something is done.

As much as it sucks, I think the current rules are correct. It's a balance between public safety and personal rights, and isn't going to be perfect.

[dragonfliet]

Honestly, I think that he's a case where we can't really make decisions about failures in the system. He wrote some (poorly written) decently gruesome stories, but then again, I'VE written worse, 300 was more bloody, anything by Tarantino was far worse etc. He harassed some girls. I've seen the word stalked get thrown around, but from what I've read, he was simply creepy and made them uncomfortable. Too many IM's, introducing himself as "Question Mark", etc. The police were called, told him to knock it off, he said ok. Then he remarked to his roommate he might as well kill himself. Roommate did a good thing and told people, but of course Cho denied any seriousness, I know, again, that I've made off the cuff remarks like that before without any reasons to believe me. They had him talk to a shrink, shrink said he wasn't in any danger and released him.

The system was used, but it simply didn't apply here. I would be pissed if I automatically was locked up because of a particularly fucked up story I've written. I would be pissed if I had a bad day and made an off the cuff remark and got put into a mental institution, I've known some buddies that have called a girls house WAY too many times and freaked the girl out enough to tell them never to call again, but I know they weren't stalking and didn't deserve to be locked up.

So? What can be done? Honestly, it's difficult to see anything that could have been done different without injuring countless other innocent individuals.

As for other points, I don't follow you. My insurance covers mental health pretty completely (much the same as a doctors visit), and the insurance I've had at other places also covered it. Of course there are no hospital beds for people with mental issues, they're not supposed to go to the hospital. There is plenty of room in mental health institutions for people, or plenty of appointments at psychologists offices. Perhaps I only know about around me, but I've never heard about someone being turned away in the few instances I know of friends seeking out some help.

~Jason