U.K. Bombings

[Mr. Happy]

I thought most countries in Europe required you to carry some form of identification at all times

About the whole news thing, why would you watch American channels, and even then, why Fox? Just put on NBC if you want real news for gods sake...

[Jest@]

Don't believe everything you hear, a badly driven car and a boot with a small gas cylinder does not an Al-Qaeda terrorist attack make. The UK government is known for hyping terror attacks in the very same way that the American media does also.

Classic example of weasel-words: "...The UK govt is known for hyping...". Making your opinion sound like well-recognized truth. It's not really true in my opinion - or that of anyone I know. The UK government normally responds in a more-or-less measured manner; especially compared to the US (Anthrax postal scare, for example).

Although I do accept your point that a background fear climate is being gently stoked to ease legislation, I wouldn't quite call it hyping. It's a little overemphasis here and there, not all-out rabble-rousing

And downplaying the idea of a car-bomb is foolish, they're one of the most devastatingly effective weapons in the terrorist arsenal; if not in terms of physical casualties and damage, then definitely psychologically.

I think one of the reasons the UK is handling this a lot better that, say, the US would goes back deeper into our national psyche - for years we lived with the IRA, who did a lot of damage and almost got some incredibly high-profile targets(Thatcher, Brighton, 1984) and used similar kind of 'invisible' tactics; car-bombs, bin-bombs (for the americans; trashcan bombs. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons it's so bloody hard to find a bin on the street in London, although that's improving) etc. So, we're kinda more used to living with that day-to-day fear, where anyone or anything right next to you on the street could blow at any moment, which is (imho) a different kind of fear than 9-11 fear.

But anyone who seriously thinks tightening border control is going to help prevent this: wrong. Anyone who thinks ID cards will help stop it: wrong. The trial set of the biometric ID cards released a few years back were forged within a few hours; no matter how tight our border controls, there will always be some way to sneak through, legal or illegal, especially if well-financed. And besides, most of the plotters etc arrested recently have been homegrown; 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. I for one do not support the idea of clamping down on legitimate immigration on the extreme-off-chance the immigrant's child or grandchild could possibly one day become a terrorist.

And there ends my annual foray into the plastic-cup-politics subforum.

edit: I was leaving a club just up the road from haymarket at about 1.30/2AM the night the carbomb was found. Kinda freaked me out the next morning.

[Sathor]

@Mr Happy:

Well, German citizens get their ID card when becoming 16 years old. You do not have to carry it with you all the time, but I do, because if you are involved in some sort of crime or accident, left behind wounded, it just makes it easier for the police to sort out who you are, for example.
If you want to buy drinks or something like that, often the driving license is not enough as the verification of age. But you don't have to carry anything with you, actually ... I mean, I can go out of the house without any of those things.

[Fearian]

Who does actually have these ID cards as i have never heard of them

noone. the UK Gov want to bring them in though.

[Mango]

You're quite right, they're weasel words - according to that website, when used without source refences, the problem is that because it's such a huge generalisation one might need an infinite number of sources. But I've read about the government and media working in tandem to pump up a story to make it dramatic. Such as that NFL terror threat from a forum website, and we also notice in this case that some mainstream news reported on these "message on a website used by terrorists".

There are many other examples, but I didn't want to have to go on a link fest and reference everything - not enough time for a plastic-cup-politics forum discussion, right?. So I used the word 'known', like when you say "Brazil is known for its football team", or "western theocracies are known for imperialism". If you didn't know that, you might well ask for sources.

So 'known' in the sense that it is known, for the people that have taken notice of things like this in the past, and come to the conclusion that such events are used as political hay to push agenda. Similarly, and at a reductionist level: people know governments and the media exploit tragedy

I'll be happy if you read this, or I might've wasted my time.

[Athlete{UK}]

Tightening up borders will do fuck all. The july 7th bombing were all done by British people.

The change has to come in a lot more things focused at the cause not in trying to control the effect.

I also agree with Jest on the UKs comparatively calm and measured approach with terrorists.

People forget we've been getting bombed since WW1. It's a sad thing to say but we're just more experienced then the USA in these matters. It actually pains me to say that.

[The Wanderer]

Who does actually have these ID cards as i have never heard of them

in Belgium u must carry it from the age of 12.

[mastersmith98]

first off much like America Britain is never going to close its borders, why? well you wouldn't believe me if I told you. second off those weren't bombs but just a couple of vechiles(sp) filled with lots of gas, if they did blow up then no one would have gotten hurt, or hurt badly enough for a fatality. third off a "bombing" means bombs went off non of the vechiles(sp) exploded and only one caught on fire.

[Mr. Happy]

first off much like America Britain is never going to close its borders, why? well you wouldn't believe me if I told you....

great reason!

do tell please

[Sorrow]

second off those weren't bombs but just a couple of vechiles(sp) filled with lots of gas, if they did blow up then no one would have gotten hurt, or hurt badly enough for a fatality.

Aside from the fact that your whole post is a load of crap, I picked this, my favourite part of crap, to let you know that nails were also present and if and when these devices would explode they would caused lots of casualties.

[Khaeotixs]

first off much like America Britain is never going to close its borders, why? well you wouldn't believe me if I told you. second off those weren't bombs but just a couple of vechiles(sp) filled with lots of gas, if they did blow up then no one would have gotten hurt, or hurt badly enough for a fatality. third off a "bombing" means bombs went off non of the vechiles(sp) exploded and only one caught on fire.

Have you SEEN the devastation in Iraq when these bombs are used? Do you HAVE any idea at all how bad a gas canister exploding can be? The glass in the windows alone would have shredded anyone near, let alone the fireball, the nails, the metal in the car, the metal from the canisters... The petrol tank of the car would have also exploded, and what would have been left would be a 10-30 to maybe even 100 metre fatality zone. Beyond that, a 100-200 metre injury zone, and further out, 50-500 metres beyond the injury zone anyone within that radius would have been shocked, traumatized and possibly injured in the panic resulting. The fact that this was parked OUTSIDE a nightclub, set to go off at the club's closing time would have led to hundreds, maybe up to 500 people being killed/severely maimed. Thank you for making a mockery of well-respected tactics.

[mastersmith98]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4xyM5XRcjMw

heres also what the majority of the bombs in iraq are made of.

[Khaeotixs]

To be honest, I don't think you can credit the report given there. As anyone with any history of using flammable liquids like petrol and LPG, they will be ignited easily, can reach HUGE temperatures, and when pressurized perform fabulous explosions of flame. These explosions are NOT to be taken lightly, and I think that here in the UK we have a much longer reign of dealing with explosive devices made from petrol etc as we had to deal with the IRA, who often used such devices in attempts against us.

[naked jesus]

Don't believe everything you hear, a badly driven car and a boot with a small gas cylinder does not an Al-Qaeda terrorist attack make. The UK government is known for hyping terror attacks in the very same way that the American media does also.

Offtopic but, if the UK govt wanted to secure its border, it could do it. Same with the American border. When the govt thinks it's ready to introduce ID cards, it will say "This will fight: terrorism, fraud, ID theft, immigration, paedophiles, the weather etc.."

Then the fun will really start, because people will realise that it didn't make them safer, and things got a whole lot worse.

Yeah, they can use it to get everyone "waving their country's flag" so to speak, and have easier control over them, as a shepherd over his flock. Everyone will be easier to control by mentioning simple things like "it will stop terrorists!"

Bit like religion imo but lets not go into that


Also, about the thing with A small gas cylinder, wasnt there also nails, a small explosive device and something else?

[Mr. Happy]

To be honest, I don't think you can credit the report given there. As anyone with any history of using flammable liquids like petrol and LPG, they will be ignited easily, can reach HUGE temperatures, and when pressurized perform fabulous explosions of flame. These explosions are NOT to be taken lightly, and I think that here in the UK we have a much longer reign of dealing with explosive devices made from petrol etc as we had to deal with the IRA, who often used such devices in attempts against us.

A propane explosion doesn't produce much of a shockwave. Big flame, big boom, barely any real destructive force.