Half life 2's scanners coming true?

[Posessed]

You know, for some reason people think that this is "bad" or "wrong", but i got nothing to hide.
If this makes my life easier, then hell, i'll be the first in line.

If you let me go through every little part of your life and then let me make the rules as what is legal/illegal or elsehow "undesirable", would you change your mind?


the Ive got nothing to hide argument is so weak its laughable. If a system like that gets abused, it doesnt matter that youve got "nothing to hide". You will be rid of the freedom to "hide" something, and they decide what can get you in trouble.

I don't care if some Gman character knows every detail about my life.

Honestly, it's not exiting stuff

[The Wanderer]

I don't care if some Gman character knows every detail about my life.

Honestly, it's not exiting stuff

knowledge is power and knowledge can be used against u...

[Posessed]

I don't care if some Gman character knows every detail about my life.

Honestly, it's not exiting stuff

knowledge is power and knowledge can be used against u...

Oshi-!

We now know what brand of toilepaper he uses, we know he masturbates at least two times a day, and his dog's name is Buster.

He's going DOWN!!!

[Dionysos]

I don't care if some Gman character knows every detail about my life.

Honestly, it's not exiting stuff

knowledge is power and knowledge can be used against u...

Oshi-!

We now know what brand of toilepaper he uses, we know he masturbates at least two times a day, and his dog's name is Buster.

He's going DOWN!!!

what are your habits? are you maybe cheating on your wife or gf? do you "pirate" music or movies? Do you have pictures of your children on your computer from when they were babies and maybe werent wearing much clothes? do you have any interests that are "unusual"? do you receive email from people who are suspected to have commited a "crime" or are otherwise in the searchlight of the authorities?


All of that can be used to destroy or at least make your life *very* uncomfortable, if placed in the wrong hands, in the wrong society. Then again, if you never become an "enemy of the state" (which doesnt have to be your fault) they truly wont care.

[Sacul15]

I don't care if some Gman character knows every detail about my life.

Honestly, it's not exiting stuff

knowledge is power and knowledge can be used against u...

Oshi-!

We now know what brand of toilepaper he uses, we know he masturbates at least two times a day, and his dog's name is Buster.

He's going DOWN!!!

what are your habits? are you maybe cheating on your wife or gf? do you "pirate" music or movies? Do you have pictures of your children on your computer from when they were babies and maybe werent wearing much clothes? do you have any interests that are "unusual"? do you receive email from people who are suspected to have commited a "crime" or are otherwise in the searchlight of the authorities?


All of that can be used to destroy or at least make your life *very* uncomfortable, if placed in the wrong hands, in the wrong society. Then again, if you never become an "enemy of the state" (which doesnt have to be your fault) they truly wont care.

Maybe, if you were famous and people actually cared about any of that crap. Besides, shouldn't it be the government's right (and responsibility) to know if you are doing anything illegal?

[Dionysos]

of course it should be the governments right if it were illegal. and *theoretically* "total" surveillance is good, because it could "prevent" a lot of crime.

But in effect, especially with the technologies of today, it would get abused. There would be too much power in too few hands, and it would be impossible to "watch the watchers". Surveillance of your internet activity or other digitally stored information about you is incredibly easy to fake (in other words its easy to place false incriminating material). The risk of abuse is heightened by how easy it is(already, at least in the uk it seems) to gain the permission to access or perform such surveillance.

The government on the other hand has no right to try to find out if you are doing anything illegal by doing something illegal. By putting everyone under surveillance, without concrete indications that would point to a possible crime, everyone is in effect put under a general suspicion of being a criminal, which is prohibited by most constitutions. There is also the right to privacy which should be considered. The government can not circumvent these. However, there seems to be a growing acceptance of simply ignoring that, which is also an indication of how the "respect" of such basic laws and rights is diminishing. In such a society or with such a government, it is not unthinkable that it will become possible for a few or individuals in general to abuse systems such as total surveillance and the information that is gathered to advance their personal (or those of their organization/group/party/whatever( goals or legislate rules to the same aim.

If it *can* be abused, it will.


edit: oh and you dont have to be famous for those things to work at all. You can be convicted for child pornography (the appropiate legislature is not far off in germany for instance, and already in effect some other places if I recall correctly), fined for x-money (in effect drowning you in debt) for piracy (ok not so likely since its the MI that sues), had the information about your affair passed to your wife etc etc

[Sacul15]

I completely agree with you that the government shouldn't be allowed to commit a crime to find criminals, but I'm all for laws that results in a minor inconvenience for me but may potentially save my life.

[NightWolf]

You know, for some reason people think that this is "bad" or "wrong", but i got nothing to hide.
If this makes my life easier, then hell, i'll be the first in line.

If you let me go through every little part of your life and then let me make the rules as what is legal/illegal or elsehow "undesirable", would you change your mind?


the Ive got nothing to hide argument is so weak its laughable. If a system like that gets abused, it doesnt matter that youve got "nothing to hide". You will be rid of the freedom to "hide" something, and they decide what can get you in trouble.

Yes the nothing to hide argument is extremely weak.

Here is a video explaining it, yes the video is extreme but it gets the point across.
It talks about the patriot act in the US mainly but can be applied to other issues as well.

[RobQ]

It's the history of governments to abuse their citizens. Give minimal power to the government to get the job done.

The history of "secret data" is to leak out beyond it's intended purpose. Usually you don't know it's leaked, but it's being used against you. Don't collect information unless the values out-weigh the risks.

Do you really trust Bush and Cheney, and the cronies they've appointed, to have any respect for you, and not to use and expend you for their own gain? Do you think they are the end of the line? No, there'll be more, and the power you concede to your government now will be available to those people too.

Aren't there any Eastern Europeans here to knock some sense into people?

[Sacul15]

It's the history of governments to abuse their citizens. Give minimal power to the government to get the job done.

The history of "secret data" is to leak out beyond it's intended purpose. Usually you don't know it's leaked, but it's being used against you. Don't collect information unless the values out-weigh the risks.

Do you really trust Bush and Cheney, and the cronies they've appointed, to have any respect for you, and not to use and expend you for their own gain? Do you think they are the end of the line? No, there'll be more, and the power you concede to your government now will be available to those people too.

Aren't there any Eastern Europeans here to knock some sense into people?

Why would the government take the time to ruin my life? You said yourself that the government doesn't give a crap about me. I can see where you're going with this, but I think your argument really only applies to people who are a threat to the government.

[Posessed]

It's the history of governments to abuse their citizens. Give minimal power to the government to get the job done.

The history of "secret data" is to leak out beyond it's intended purpose. Usually you don't know it's leaked, but it's being used against you. Don't collect information unless the values out-weigh the risks.

Do you really trust Bush and Cheney, and the cronies they've appointed, to have any respect for you, and not to use and expend you for their own gain? Do you think they are the end of the line? No, there'll be more, and the power you concede to your government now will be available to those people too.

Aren't there any Eastern Europeans here to knock some sense into people?

Why would the government take the time to ruin my life? You said yourself that the government doesn't give a crap about me. I can see where you're going with this, but I think your argument really only applies to people who are a threat to the government.

I really think you summed up the argument there.
The only thing that can come out of this, is absolute justice.
Noone will ever be able to commit a crime and get away with it. Crime would cease.

Man, that would rock...

[The Ace]

I think some people are really missing the point here: The government should and has RIGHT to investigate and take actions against criminals. Why should you be worried about your integrity, unless you are a criminal?
Piracy, child porn and such is CRIMINAL OFFENSES. You want others to get caught, but not you?
And further; The government getting more tools for finding criminal activity is not equivalent of more coppers. Even if the government finds out that you pirated Crysis or Windows Vista, it doesn't mean you will have three police squads bashing your door in, dragging you out and throwing you in jail in the blink of an eye.
It doesn't mean harsher punishments, either. If anything, "lightweight" offenses like small-scale piracy will not result in jail-time at all (remember that harsh punishments is a tool for intimidating potential criminals).

[jhonny_paradox]

Ace, I don't think anyone here has a problem with it being used against true criminals. But history does state that power in the hands of few is equal to problems of corruption.

The problem isn't catching criminals, the probelm is the few with the power to use information and law against their enemies. The few with power if corrupted will dole out their own 'justice' and this is based solely on their own morals and judgements. What if another Hitler rose to power in our time, we'd be screwed, or at least any of their enemies would be screwed. Not only that, but they would have enough power to cover their own tracks and remain in power and fool the masses. *cough*

[The Ace]

Ace, I don't think anyone here has a problem with it being used against true criminals. But history does state that power in the hands of few is equal to problems of corruption.

The problem isn't catching criminals, the probelm is the few with the power to use information and law against their enemies. The few with power if corrupted will dole out their own 'justice' and this is based solely on their own morals and judgements. What if another Hitler rose to power in our time, we'd be screwed, or at least any of their enemies would be screwed. Not only that, but they would have enough power to cover their own tracks and remain in power and fool the masses. *cough*

Far from all governments has such a history; Corruption is not a problem everywhere.
Obviously this would only work in some states where corrupt leaders has little to no chance of ever getting power. We have learned a lot from history.

[Dionysos]

Ace, I don't think anyone here has a problem with it being used against true criminals. But history does state that power in the hands of few is equal to problems of corruption.

The problem isn't catching criminals, the probelm is the few with the power to use information and law against their enemies. The few with power if corrupted will dole out their own 'justice' and this is based solely on their own morals and judgements. What if another Hitler rose to power in our time, we'd be screwed, or at least any of their enemies would be screwed. Not only that, but they would have enough power to cover their own tracks and remain in power and fool the masses. *cough*

Far from all governments has such a history; Corruption is not a problem everywhere.
Obviously this would only work in some states where corrupt leaders has little to no chance of ever getting power. We have learned a lot from history.

Well right now I cant think of anywhere its not a problem. We have not learned from history. And one of the simple facts that the constitutions of many countries are changed or people want to change them "just like that" should scare even the most pro-surveillance/police state.


Just because we think of ourselves as more "civilsed" in the western world doesnt mean our politics are in any shape or form up to using that kind of power safely. paradox said it quite nicely.