If Obama were elected... [no flaming]

[Sorrow]

I know this isn't going to you know, do well, but how about increasing taxes? You pay what 3,5 / 5 percent taxes? (well in one state atleast, I saw that somewhere) ... We start at 12,5 or something up to 42 % for the highest incomes.

correct me if I'm wrong on that because that does seem very odd...

[Sacul15]

Article about taxes

[Sorrow]

interesting but,

At the core of this unreadable agglomeration is the most arrogant scheme of all, the progressive income tax. Its basic idea is that the more productive you are, the more you should pay in taxes.

think about this for a second, because that is not necessarily true.
Also, all that personal gain is nice, but there are other people on the planet too you know, and it's not all about making the most money.
80 % of all wealth is in the hands of 20% of the worlds population or something? Do you think they achieved that by hard work whilst the labourers in chinese football producing plants (to name something stereotypical) are working themselves to death for a dollar a week?

I think you, or well, we all are a bit spoiled, some don't realise it as much but we are.

[Sacul15]

I wouldn't say spoiled. Fortunate would be a more appropriate word. I am lucky to have been born in a middle-class family. All of us (unless you immigrated) are lucky to have been born in some of the wealthiest nations in the world. But that luck and where we start out doesn't give us a work-free easy life. I have to succeed on my own- my parents cannot pay for my life's needs, just like the United States and other countries with similar economic prosperity have to work to maintain the levels of production which keep them superior.

Little bit off topic, but have you (any of you) read Atlas Shrugged?

[Sorrow]

fortunate, true.
I didn't say we don't have to succeed on our own, but becoming richer than rich is something different altogether.

also,

Little bit off topic, but have you (any of you) read Atlas Shrugged?

Nope haven't, but this bit made me lol

Rand's heroes must continually fight against the "Parasites", "looters", and "moochers" of the society surrounding them.

Having read a bit about the "laissez faire" concept I think it's as fundamentally flawed as any other form of "control". Capitalism and all that self-enrichment leads to the top 1% having 99% of all the wealth if we let them. Maybe they are the parasites. You know, people who get rich usually get doing so by hard work, but also by treading on others.

What's all that stuff to you anyway, you live in a middle class family and chances are that you'll have a middle class family of yourself oneday and be happy and 'productive' and all that good stuff.
Nobody's expecting you to become a millionaire.

God I hope I don't get to work for some crazy company and become all wealthy, I'd be ending up in hell for sure.

oh and by rich I don't mean like top middle class man, no, rich as in owning millions.
Nobody needs to own millions, why should they, and if they can make a thousand people happy and live by a great standard instead of hogging those millions for themselves, why should they?
That's not the pursuit of "rational self-interest" that's just greed and a waste of a life if you ask me.

[Sacul15]

The whole rational self-interest part isn't about selfishness on a whim. It's not like refusing to share a bag of chips just because you bought them. It's more of like realizing what your goals are and then doing everything in your power to achieve them. In my opinion, the only way people get stepped on while others make money is if those people achieve their wealth through theft or fraud, which the book absolutely condemns.

Anyway, I can't really do the book's reasoning justice, since I don't have the command of the language Rand does, but I highly recommend it. Not to sound like a Bible salesman, but it will change your life.

Here's an excerpt: clicky

[BillyDa59]

The main point of that excerpt from the book was, "Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?" Which that is something I can attest to, or at least my mother could. My family used to live in a very... modest trailer park. Actually we used to live in a bunch of trailer parks. We never seemed to stay in one place for more that a year or so. I'm not trying to brag now, but with how well off my family is now, you'd never guess that we used to live in a trailer. Like most mothers, mine tells me constantly to be thankful for what I have, and I am, but unlike most mothers, along with that first part she always adds, "We used to live very poorly and I worked my way up from the bottom, ect..." It's true though. My mother is the most determined and hard-working person I know and because of that she's a CEO of her own small business. So to me, the idea of 'the man' and large corporations holding down the working class is crap. You get what you work for in life and if life hand you lemons, then you throw them aside and keep working.

[Mr. Happy]

I haven't read any Raynd, but I hear on one side that it's amazing, and then one of my best friends looooves Fountainhead, think's its the best thing ever.


What little I know of her work, it sounds to me like she is right, but one of those people that takes things a little too far (which we all do at times). It seems like what I've heard is theoretically 100% true, but in practice 75% true.


I don't really know though, but I REALLY want to read her work. Which book should I start with?

[Sacul15]

Well I started with Anthem in 9th grade. It's a dystopic novel (well it's hardly a novel. It's like 100 pages long) where people have lost the word "I". It's a fun read, but to really get into depth you should read The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. I still haven't finished The Fountainhead, but I love Atlas Shrugged. It's one of my top books. Make sure you've got some time to spare, though- it's about 1200 pages long. It's well worth it though.

[RawMeat3000]

I'd recommend the Fountainhead, it's more accessible since it's shorter and it's more believable. Some of the plot points in Atlas Shrugged are... well, ridiculous. They're both still amazing books.

[Jangalomph]

I honestly think as a southern person. He would get shot. That is my honest opinion and i would not want him in the white house. I support McCain. But honestly i don't really care, As long as taxes aren't raised.

[otihome2469]

I actually want obama to win he seems like a guy who can get things done. I also like his plans to find new alternative methods for energy which in doing so will create millions of jobs to boost the economy. Also i personally don't care if he raises taxes because America owes 6 trillion dollars which is 4 trillion dollars more since president bush took office. But he also made a statement that he will lower taxes so not sure really.

[firedfns13]

He's got no experiance. though whether that means he's uncorrupted or can't do anything / becomes a tool im not sure.

[Sacul15]

I actually want obama to win he seems like a guy who can get things done. I also like his plans to find new alternative methods for energy which in doing so will create millions of jobs to boost the economy. Also i personally don't care if he raises taxes because America owes 6 trillion dollars which is 4 trillion dollars more since president bush took office. But he also made a statement that he will lower taxes so not sure really.

McCain supports alternative energy sources as well, and he supports drilling for more oil and exploring nuclear, which Obama does not. I haven't seen the numbers, but McCain's plan seems like it would create more jobs.

Cutting taxes actually brings in more revenue than raising them, as a result of an increased economy. The reason we're in the situation we're in now isn't because taxes are too low, but because spending is too high. Bush has signed a lot of expensive legislation that should have been struck down before it reached his desk (not to mention the war, which in my opinion is justified with the exception of its horrible execution, but it still costs $$$). Obama's tax hikes for the wealthy aren't going to go towards the elimination of our debt anyhow, but for outrageous government programs.

[stoopdapoop]

McCain supports alternative energy sources as well, and he supports drilling for more oil and exploring nuclear, which Obama does not. I haven't seen the numbers, but McCain's plan seems like it would create more jobs.

Obama supports offshore drilling as a stopgap, not as a solution, also to say he doesn't support offshore drilling isn't correct either.

From his energy plan,

• A “Use it or Lose It” Approach to Existing Leases. Oil companies have access to 68 million acres
of land, over 40 million offshore, which they are not drilling on. Drilling in open areas could
significantly increase domestic oil and gas production. Obama will require oil companies to
diligently develop these leases or turn them over so that another company can develop them.

Also, c'mon now, don't say obama doesn't support nuclear energy.

From his energy plan listed on his website.

Safe and Secure Nuclear Energy. Nuclear power represents more than 70 percent of our noncarbon
generated electricity. It is unlikely that we can meet our aggressive climate goals if we
eliminate nuclear power as an option. However, before an expansion of nuclear power is
considered, key issues must be addressed including: security of nuclear fuel and waste, waste
storage, and proliferation. Barack Obama introduced legislation in the U.S. Senate to establish
guidelines for tracking, controlling and accounting for spent fuel at nuclear power plants. To
prevent international nuclear material from falling into terrorist hands abroad, Obama worked
closely with Sen. Dick Lugar (R‐IN) to strengthen international efforts to identify and stop the
smuggling of weapons of mass destruction. As president, Obama will make safeguarding nuclear
material both abroad and in the U.S. a top anti‐terrorism priority. In terms of waste storage,
Obama does not believe that Yucca Mountain is a suitable site. He will lead federal efforts to look
for safe, long‐term disposal solutions based on objective, scientific analysis. In the meantime,
Obama will develop requirements to ensure that the waste stored at current reactor sites is
contained using the most advanced dry‐cask storage technology available.

Just thought I'd put that in.