U.S. House votes down bailout deal

[k-dawg]

If the government owned the mortgages they could be converted into the kind that people even of very low means can pay back eventually, and the government could turn a profit. A similar thing did happen in the great depression, and we DID turn a profit.

not going to start an argument. but one of the largest helpers in the profit was us being away from Germany and WWII. Europe was buying everything from us. even the germans until we entered the war, (even then we still sent supplies to their 'citizens') yes, FDR helped a LOT. but we owe a big thanks to Germany. . . they fulled us to recovery.

yeah, we sold our house in Vegas at the peak of the prices before they fell.. 300,000 back in '05 then it hit hard. real hard...
my neighborhood turned into a "slump's" i lived close to Mojave HS in northern LV. (MAJOR housing boom there) they decided to bus in people cuz they could make more money for each kid. over crowding the kids. the buses. and the fight for homes closer to the HS just drove everything down. my old friend's parents cant sell their house. well. who wants to live in the desert?


all i can say is now its time to start buying back the stock markets. get it while its low. (something that could have helped back in the 30's was support for the market.)
we dont need to worry about the companies. either someone will buy them out, or they just shrivel and die out. survival of the fittest.
we dont need government intervention,

and pelosi is an idiot.

[GalantnostS-]

I would have to say I am getting worried with events like these unfold...

Truth to be told, if International banks and insurance companies continue to do bad, they may not hire any new employee... and in their Hong Kong branch offices as well... I don't want a hard time finding jobs when I graduate next summer

[Spike]

Why would the goverment save riches asses with workers money?

Unfortunately money always goes to rich people and not to those who need it

[k-dawg]

Why would the goverment save riches asses with workers money?

Unfortunately money always goes to rich people and not to those who need it

cuz the rich can afford the money. =)

[BaRRaKID]

You call this a crisis? lo0l! You don't know what a crisis is until you've lived in Portugal.
The problem is that in the US people hear the word "crisis" and automatically turn insane, starting to sell everything they own, and getting out of the boat while they can, making companies value drop, even tough their business is doing great. There's nothing you can do against this, specially not in an extremely consumerist country like yours, unless you can change the brain of everyone in the country, or maybe turn to communism

But you're the ones to blame for all this, you spent billions of dollars with the Iraq and Afghanistan war, you failed to respond to the increase of Euro (€) value, you increased the prize of oil by speculation do to the Iraq war (60% of the price of a barrel of crude is just market speculation), you didn't warned people of the escalation of interest rates making they spend more then they had, putting the banks and consumers in debt, and another million reasons that just prove how bad the current government is, and how naive people where/are.

I think the solution is to first stop spending so much money feeding the wars, you spend more on wars and military than an hooker on crack. Then you need to increase minimum wage and drop taxes so that people can pay their bills. Finally inject some money in key companies of the country in order to stimulate the markets.

On the plus side Europe is growing stronger with all this, so keep doing what you're going, cause you do it great

[medestruit]

You call this a crisis? lo0l! You don't know what a crisis is until you've lived in Portugal.
The problem is that in the US people hear the word "crisis" and automatically turn insane, starting to sell everything they own, and getting out of the boat while they can, making companies value drop, even tough their business is doing great. There's nothing you can do against this, specially not in an extremely consumerist country like yours, unless you can change the brain of everyone in the country, or maybe turn to communism

But you're the ones to blame for all this, you spent billions of dollars with the Iraq and Afghanistan war, you failed to respond to the increase of Euro (€) value, you increased the prize of oil by speculation do to the Iraq war (60% of the price of a barrel of crude is just market speculation), you didn't warned people of the escalation of interest rates making they spend more then they had, putting the banks and consumers in debt, and another million reasons that just prove how bad the current government is, and how naive people where/are.

I think the solution is to first stop spending so much money feeding the wars, you spend more on wars and military than an hooker on crack. Then you need to increase minimum wage and drop taxes so that people can pay their bills. Finally inject some money in key companies of the country in order to stimulate the markets.

On the plus side Europe is growing stronger with all this, so keep doing what you're going, cause you do it great

Why does everyone, in this day and age, still equate Iraq/Middle East to oil?! It blows my friggin mind. Since Desert Storm, the US has NOT imported larger than 15% of it's national oil from Iraq. Is that such a hard concept? Domestic, Canada and Venezuela are the US's top oil benefactors.

But on topic, the real issue is everyone fearing "debt." You must realize, debt is what drives the economy. If you have no debt, you have nothing to borrow against. Similar to when you first gain a credit score. If you pay cash for everything; no loans for school, no mortgage, no credit of any sort...you don't gain a credit score, and are this a liability to any bank. Thus, they will reluctantly cover you, and only for sub $5,000 totals. The second people hear "debt" they automatically turn down anything government related.

The U.S. war bill isn't even that large, in considering the fact that we are getting money back, as well (military building contracts, contracted through the U.N. and private sources in the Middle East). Dropping taxes increases inflation, and plummets the value of the currency.

The other major factor in this whole issue is timing. The market is taking it's normal drop, as it always does every period. It has a normal drop every 3-5 years. This is part of the economic climate, and the market ALWAYS recovers from it. It doesn't typically drop this low, but there have been other issues to influence it (gas shortage in many of the southern states due to damaged pipelines after the string of hurricanes that wrecked the gulf coast, to name one). The markets drop is also preparing for a government election at the same time. Political climate also shifts the market(and the whole down-trading scandal under investigation is part of this political issue currently).

Someone mention McCain just sitting back and letting Obama take heat. You're damn right he is, and he's smart. Causing panic in masses calling this a "crisis" is the last thing he'd want to do going into an election. It's not a crisis, by any means. Yes, it is an issue, but certainly not a crisis. Obama's major downfall is he wants to take on all this stuff and make "changes"....but not even Obama knows what changes need to be done. He speaks over and over about change, but never has an answer as to how or what he will change. We had waffles 4 years ago, and now we have a pancake...perfectly describing the depth of Obama: flat.

[Mr. Happy]

No see, McCain sat back and let Obama try and do something and now he's giving Obama shit for not doing enough.

[Mango]

The US import of Afghan/Iraqi oil may not have increased, but the legal rights to it were drawn up by Big Oil lawyers & James Baker 3rd group lawyers.

Oil speculation, and the 60% price increase is due predominantly to currency devaluation. Because if the dollar is a depreciating asset, people will want to find safer investments such as oil, gold and food. Isn't it telling that gold shoots up after the bailout was denied?

[dissonance]

But ya, testicles? Are you fucking nuts? Your saying it's a good thing they didn't pass it for this reason? Did you listen to what he said?

Fuck yes it's a good thing they didn't vote on a bill that was still in the draft stage.

[dragonfliet]

But you're the ones to blame for all this, you spent billions of dollars with the Iraq and Afghanistan war, you failed to respond to the increase of Euro (€) value, you increased the prize of oil by speculation do to the Iraq war (60% of the price of a barrel of crude is just market speculation), you didn't warned people of the escalation of interest rates making they spend more then they had, putting the banks and consumers in debt, and another million reasons that just prove how bad the current government is, and how naive people where/are.

I think the solution is to first stop spending so much money feeding the wars, you spend more on wars and military than an hooker on crack. Then you need to increase minimum wage and drop taxes so that people can pay their bills. Finally inject some money in key companies of the country in order to stimulate the markets.

On the plus side Europe is growing stronger with all this, so keep doing what you're going, cause you do it great

You fail economics. Banks losing money has nothing to do with money the government spends on war. Yeah, spending that money is bad, but it doesn't make people default on their mortages. The problem is very simply in people's poor spending habbits, buying too much on credit, purchasing houses they can't afford and defaulting, causing massive losses to the lending institutions, which go under and pull with them people's investments, causing less investment to happen (look at wallstreet), meaning less jobs, less wage increases, etc.

Also, a massive reason that oil prices have gone up is because of continued growth of the middle class in China and India. OPEC isn't producing more oil, they're just charging more per amount of oil so that supply and demand balance. The war has increased oil prices not because of instability, but because of use (the machines of war require much fuel). Also, the problem isn't how much money they have, it's that they're spending this money on LCD televisions and cars. Giving them a tax break only get's them into more debt (an amusing effect. They get $600 and decide to buy a $1000 television). What needs to change is American's ATTITUDE, of which war doesn't really factor.

~Jason

[Wrath]

Despite this thread sitting idly, and the outcome of this ordeal someone pointed me to this video: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html
I think in light of the 2008 election, we need a good laugh.

[Mango]

Guys, you're missing some key information from your theories.

1. The govt doesn't 'earn money back' during re construction programmes, the private contractors and corporations make the real money. The government finances the operation through debt to the private central banking network, represented by the Federal Reserve in the USA.

2. Dragonfliet: to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the irresponsible idiots is off target. These people, along with so many others, were caught in a predatory scheme. Their debt was backed yes, but it is the securitization process that caused the crisis. This is a derivatives crisis. It was the banks taking those debts, packaging them up with other investments and selling the investment as a bond on the open market. They got the ratings companies to AAA rate toxic debt. They massively inflated the currency supply through fractional reserve lending and the monetization of debt.

And now, instead of the 700bn debt total, it's gonna be bailout after bailout. Have you actually read the bill? Do you know it gives them total immunity on inside trading as they progressively crash the bank chains? Do you understand that this is a robbery in action?

And the best part? The money. The money for the bailouts. Where is it coming from?

The banks. They are lending us the money to pay themselves off. It's a scam.

Guys, this is real. Who are the ones running the black ski-mask cops? The government is a cash register for the banks. They OWN America. They funded Hitler, and Stalin and Mao. Now it's gonna happen globally. They are going for broke. Can't you guys see that?

It's time to wake up guys. Can't you see all the wars, the torture, the corruption, the police state, the reduction of rights and freedoms, the face-scanning cameras, the tazers, the APCs?

How far are we gonna go with this? Cos I gotta tell ya: it's a dark road. History man, it repeats. The killing never stopped. There is more slavery now than there has ever been. Criminal governments killed over 200 million people in the 20th century alone. Mao killed 50 million people.

I could go on and on. How much is enough when everything is off the charts?
You tell me.

[TheBoyChris]

Mango: Whilst I see your point, there will come another point where the government will try to enforce this kind of stuff, i.e.: house repossessions, bankrupting citizens, etc... and they'll end up with *mass* public disorder.

You know why they don't go after pot smokers and minor criminals these days? Because there's not enough police to do it.

Works exactly the same in this instance. If 25% of the houses got repossessed, it's my opinion that they'll never be able to enforce kicking people out. There'd be mass riots and a middle ground would have to be found.

[Sacul15]

Mango, I agree with many of your points but not your conclusion. The government isn't trying to take over, they're just incompetent. I really don't believe that there could ever be some sort of Nazi-esque takeover in America; we just wouldn't allow it. I've suggested this book many times on here before, but you should read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. Even if you don't agree with his political stances, he makes a very good point that if fascism comes to America, it will come in the form of a benevolent nanny-state, not in the form of stormtroopers.

[Mango]

"You know why they don't go after pot smokers and minor criminals these days? Because there's not enough police to do it."

The prisons are full of drug addicts, addicted to the drug that the government brings in. They bring the shit in! How many stories do we have to read about CIA planes crashing because they're full of coke? They bring the drugs in, get your people hooked, then SWAT team your house and put you in a private contract labor prison.

"The government is incompetant"
The government is total military precision. They're so clever they've convinced you that they're idiots. These cats were firing cruise missiles down chimneys 50 years ago. These guys can bounce lasers around the earth to within inches of its intended target. They're the big boys, and they know what they're doing.
The globalists and the banks have destroyed and enslaved most of the third world. They have economic hit-teams. They have assassination teams. Infrastructure. Intelligence. Technological control.
Incompetent? You do them a disservice, Sir. They are many things, but incompetent is not one of them.

"Even if you don't agree with his political stances, he makes a very good point that if fascism comes to America, it will come in the form of a benevolent nanny-state, not in the form of stormtroopers."

The stormtroopers are already here!!!


Who owns Peru, eh?

Goddamnit!