U.S. House votes down bailout deal

[Sacul15]

We have always had riot police (and we have always needed them). Wearing black body armor does not make you part of some fascist regime. They designed those to look intimidating not so that they could control our lives, but so they they could scare some dickhead with a molotov cocktail.

[ghost12332]

I love mangos conspiracy theorist views. It makes my day. I would like to see a single reliable source from mango. Note: World Weekly News is NOT a reputable source! *GASP*

Besides, nothing is wrong with anarchism. Natural Selection at its best.

[Mango]

"We have always had riot police (and we have always needed them). Wearing black body armor does not make you part of some fascist regime. They designed those to look intimidating not so that they could control our lives, but so they they could scare some dickhead with a molotov cocktail"

Torture, the corruption, the police state, the reduction of rights and freedoms, the face-scanning cameras, the tazers, the airport checks, the microwave sound cannons, assault-rifled torch teams patrolling, terror street sweeps - didn't have that before, did you?

OH WHAT'S THIS?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_security
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset-backed_security

Do you understand the economic system? Fractional reserve lending? Currency creation? The history of the banking system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_contra
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/298 ... ave_labor/
"“Inmates working for UNICOR are paid between 23 cents and $1.15 per hour. In 2005 the company recorded $64.5 million in profits."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_I ... or_Program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession ... ic_Hit_Man

I could go on. The ridiculous part is this is common knowledge for anyone who has done an ounce of research. The CIA smuggle coke. Halliburton run kidnapping rings. The government killed Kennedy. They do put fluoride in the water to kill you and make you stupid.
OH WHUT'S THIS?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-00NbGD7Bvc - E Howard Hunt Confession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Howard_Hunt
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ja ... horror.htm (READ THE LINKS FOO)
http://www.nofluoride.com/

The Scientific American study "Concluded that fluoride can subtly alter endocrine function, especially in the thyroid -- the gland that produces hormones regulating growth and metabolism."

The report also notes that "a series of epidemiological studies in China have associated high fluoride exposures with lower IQ."

Ghost, I know you're taking the piss when you say stuff like "anarchism is natural selection at its best" - anyone who believed that has some pretty large holes in their world view/understanding.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

Torture, the corruption, the police state, the reduction of rights and freedoms, the face-scanning cameras, the tazers, the airport checks, the microwave sound cannons, assault-rifled torch teams patrolling, terror street sweeps - didn't have that before, did you?

Yes, its new technology. I'm sure when they originally invented guns, people said the same thing. You realize that every advance in law enforcement technology is preceded by the advancement in technology in the hands of criminals. Its escalation, completely necessary. Oh, and tasers and microwave cannons are LESS THAN LETHAL weapons intended to subdue but not kill. Apparently the heavy machine guns and assault rifles are not indicators of a police state, weapons that are designed to kill, but less than lethal incapacitation weapons are. Its either ironic or inane.

What did you mean by terror street sweeps? Also, notice that all of these things are completely necessary in a dangerous world. Would you rather having no checks at the airport, no security, no metal detectors, no locked cockpits, no air marshals? I'm fine with being slowed down and having my bag checked because I have nothing to hide.

Personally, I feel that the most important point you overlooked is the nature of a police state or this dystopia you claim we're part of. You fear the masked stormtroopers coming to your house(for no reason(such an efficient government!(don't they have something more important to do?))). But you fail to realize that every soldier, every police officer, every CIA operative is a human being. They are part of the government but they are also part of the American people. There is no way we could have a dystopian police state filled with faceless soldiers following a tyrant's every demand. Humans aren't morally blind robots, it would be naive to make such a sweeping statement. Oh, and why can't we torture bad people?And corruption is in every government.

And I never considered wikipedia a truly reliable source.

[TheBoyChris]

Oh, and why can't we torture bad people?

I agreed with everything else you said except the above, but only because in my personal opinion you can't consider people who want to hurt you 'bad', you can only consider them as an 'enemy'.

If a guy loses his whole family to US 'fire and forget' policy and he then goes and blows himself and a humvee up, is he a bad person? Some would say yes, some would say no - personally I'd say yeah, and I'd say the US shouldn't have killed his family and they're bad too... but morals are personal.

The crux of the matter is exactly as you stated it. I think people are in too good contact with one another these days, and I think generally people are better educated. I'm more worried about the media than I am about the government, though some would say the two are combined.

The media, as we seen often enough, make mountains out of molehills and dictate whether certain issues are important or not. Whether someone wears an American pin flag on their coat at a particular ceremony does not dictate whether they're a good human being with sensible foreign policy or not.

[Mango]

You realize that every advance in law enforcement technology is preceded by the advancement in technology in the hands of criminals.

I disagree with this point. Technological advancements come predominantly from the military industrial complex. Criminals cannot afford the R'n'D. Criminals exploit the flaws that exist in a system. The entire policestate apparatus was built by the government: the surveillance grid ; the illegal wiretapping ; the phone company lines running into NSA hubs - who built the system?

The 'less lethal' term is somewhat misleading. Over 400 people die a year from being tazered, a number which is climbing. Microwave cannons can kill you if they are powered up enough. What is important about these technologies, is that they are directed towards containing large numbers of people. Kinda like the MoD (Ministry of Defence) 2037 future projections saying there will be riots due to economic collapse? They are using modular banked tazers for crowds. Why is the government preparing for this?

Look at it big picture, taking rights away, torture, illegal wars, there is so much corruption and evil in government. You could write books on it.

Street sweeps were carried out in some towns/cities in the USA. Federalized police with Homeland Security, sweeping the streets for TERRORISTS (terrorists!? In the street? Just hanging round!?) and criminals (oh, now it makes sense). http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7c_1208590894

"But you fail to realize that every soldier, every police officer...." It could only work in a top-down, compartmentalized, command and control system. Which is what we have. Not every CIA agent is involved with trafficking drugs and child prostitutes, but some are. Not every FBI agents handle terrorist assets (like the 9/11 hijackers were handled), but some are. Not every soldier is involved with black-op assassinations and deniable ops, but some are.

And the people who are involved with that stuff are always at the top. It's also true that many FBI agents have gone public, risking their lives and careers by blowing the whistle on how higher-ups in the FBI closed down investigations into domestic terrorist groups. Like document W199i.

Do you know where the current global government conspiracy germ came from? It was all the old military guys retiring who had seen the plans. Smedly Butler testified that Prescott Bush and the robber barons tried to set up a fascist dictatorship in the USA during WWII.

You have to understand: they installed Hitler, the installed Stalin, they installed Mao.

President of the United States (and former General of the Army) Dwight D. Eisenhower warned what would happen if the military ever merged with the foreign central banks and corporate networks in 1961:

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-i ... al_complex

You're also right about wiki not being a proper source, but the subject is so vast and nuanced that a one page article won't cover it. Wiki is a jumping off point!

[Sacul15]

Nobody is denying that there is corruption and shady dealings throughout the government, it's just that what you seem to be proposing is that it's some massive decade-long conspiracy to keep us under control, which it isn't. Sure, maybe some individual officials seek a little extra power or they get greedy, but that only results in inefficiencies in the government. The way it's structured, even someone as powerful as the president couldn't orchestrate something like you are proposing. I haven't seen any negative effects of this "takeover". So I have to take off my shoes at the airport, big deal, I'd rather have to wait an extra thirty seconds then get blown up. So there's fluoride in my water. Good, it kills lots of the bad things in it. If it's for mind-control it certainly isn't working, judging by the 25% approval rating of the president and even lower for Congress. So the government performs some black ops? Most of them are truly in our best interests. Some things the military does just doesn't sit well with normal people, but it is still necessary. Look at Vietnam. Statistically it was one of the cleanest wars we've had, but people read stories about kids being blown up and they panic. I'm not defending Vietnam, but I'm just saying that sometimes it's better that people don't know.

[Mango]

massive decade-long conspiracy to keep us under control, which it isn't. Sure, maybe some individual officials seek a little extra power or they get greedy, but that only results in inefficiencies in the government.

Institutions can last a long, long time. Institutions have goals, they have dogma, they have systems. Banks are institutions. Governments. Religions. How long did the Roman empire last for? The Zhou Dynasty in China lasted for 800 years. Ideas can go a long way. (besides, where is your imaginary cut off point?)

The very mechanism of government itself tends towards collectivization of power. it is the nature of a strong country OR control system to reach for empire/more power.

The way it's structured, even someone as powerful as the president couldn't orchestrate something like you are proposing.

The way what is structured? The division of power between the three branches of government? You'll be interested to know that continuity of government is already in action, the US is already under martial law. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S ... _Directive - in the event of a catastrophe the executive takes over the government. Congress was threatened with Martial Law if the bailout bill wasn't passed. Rep. Sherman.

I haven't seen any negative effects of this "takeover".

Because you're not looking with the knowledge and understanding of the New World Order attack mechanism. The negative effects of the takeover of the US are all around you! You have an increasingly militarized police, hunting for terrorists they funded and created (if you want to debate that watch: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0875239407 Fabled enemies, /then/ come back)
They are looting the economy, which it going to send it into a hyper inflationary depression.
You are involved in wars for Empire, spiraling into debt, conducting EVIL. WMD's? Give me a break. How about 3 million dead Iraqis over last 10 years? How about the fact that it was western intelligence who installed him? How about how we let him kill over million Iranians?
The shit-storm is all around you, but you can't see it.

So the government performs some black ops? Most of them are truly in our best interests. Some things the military does just doesn't sit well with normal people, but it is still necessary.

Truly in who's best interests? The corporate elite? The power structure? You think they care about you? Perhaps you should start at the beginning.
Do you know about the history of black operations? How about military tactics such as false-flag terrorism?
A declassified example is Operation Ajax, the 1953 Iranian coup. US and UK intelligence blew up trains, school buses full of children, buildings. They blamed the bombing on their political enemies, a pro sovereignty group led by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mosaddeq, he wanted to nationalise the oil fields. US and UK could not allow them to destabilize their power monopoly. So those children and civilians had to die.

Is that truly in your best interests? What happened USA?
Freedom, truth, justice?
Not any more.
Torture, terror and fear.

So there's fluoride in my water. Good, it kills lots of the bad things in it.

I bet you didn't read a single article or study in those links.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." -- Albert Einstein

[Sacul15]

I don't know what I was thinking when I said fluoride killed things. I must been thinking about chlorine or something else. Even if it doesn't prevent tooth decay and even if it does cause harm to people, why would the government want that? What's the use of killing off the populace?

[Mr-Jigsaw]

The actions of a select few do not undermine the principles and ideals that a nation is based upon. Yes, because some US forces did some morally ambiguous things in the past means we are all part of the conspiracy and we are all evil.

And this does not all amount to the government being controlled by our financial institutions.

Government behind 9/11? No, just, no.


"If I had looked for a dramatic quote I'd put it here." -- Mr-Jigsaw

[Athlete{UK}]

"We have always had riot police (and we have always needed them). Wearing black body armor does not make you part of some fascist regime. They designed those to look intimidating not so that they could control our lives, but so they they could scare some dickhead with a molotov cocktail"

Torture, the corruption, the police state, the reduction of rights and freedoms, the face-scanning cameras, the tazers, the airport checks, the microwave sound cannons, assault-rifled torch teams patrolling, terror street sweeps - didn't have that before, did you?

OH WHAT'S THIS?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_security
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset-backed_security

Do you understand the economic system? Fractional reserve lending? Currency creation? The history of the banking system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_contra
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/298 ... ave_labor/
"“Inmates working for UNICOR are paid between 23 cents and $1.15 per hour. In 2005 the company recorded $64.5 million in profits."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_I ... or_Program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession ... ic_Hit_Man

I could go on. The ridiculous part is this is common knowledge for anyone who has done an ounce of research. The CIA smuggle coke. Halliburton run kidnapping rings. The government killed Kennedy. They do put fluoride in the water to kill you and make you stupid.
OH WHUT'S THIS?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-00NbGD7Bvc - E Howard Hunt Confession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Howard_Hunt
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ja ... horror.htm (READ THE LINKS FOO)
http://www.nofluoride.com/

The Scientific American study "Concluded that fluoride can subtly alter endocrine function, especially in the thyroid -- the gland that produces hormones regulating growth and metabolism."

The report also notes that "a series of epidemiological studies in China have associated high fluoride exposures with lower IQ."

Ghost, I know you're taking the piss when you say stuff like "anarchism is natural selection at its best" - anyone who believed that has some pretty large holes in their world view/understanding.

It's got to be said that using wikipedia as a reference instantly voids your entire argument.

[Mango]

It's got to be said that using wikipedia as a reference instantly voids your entire argument.

Only if you are a pseudo-academic asshole. I'm not trying to be a dick, but for fuck sake, wiki helps as a central quick place where I can links to topics quickly, without having to internet sleuth every time I reference Mohammed Mosaddeq. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, PROVE ME WRONG.

The world is in serious trouble folks.

Look:

The actions of a select few do not undermine the principles and ideals that a nation is based upon.

Who are these 'select few'? They are the people running the country, can't you see that? Are you truly so blind? You think that the agents running drugs and women aren't sanctioned by the higher-ups? It's being carried out by criminal elements of the US govt.

Yes, because some US forces did some morally ambiguous things in the past means we are all part of the conspiracy and we are all evil.

This is a total misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say all of you were evil and part of a conspiracy. "Morally ambiguous"? One million people a year being used as actual slaves? Hundreds of crying children being loaded onto military c130 transport planes every night to be sold into sex slavery? You call that "morally ambiguous"!? I call it total evil and utterly wicked. You want all the documents? You want to see the deputy Homeland Security directors caught with underage prostitutes? You want the Texas Youth Commission documents where they ran rape rooms? You want to see the high level involvement of European government's links to global pedophile networks?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fZovDsSoNyQ - Alex Jones on CPS Corruption & Sex Rings

You have no idea what your government is involved with.

"things in the past...."

This is all still going on now, in fact, it getting worse, and worse, and worse. They're criminals. When they get away with it, they get bolder, and bolder. More wars, more corruption, more slavery. I follow the news. History is in motion.

[Mango]

Government behind 9/11? No, just, no.

Look I don't want to get into this, just watch these documentaries and the RESEARCH the news articles and historical references.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0127819985 - 9/11 Road to Tyranny (HUNDREDS of news articles) http://911readingroom.org/index.html will help
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0875239407 - Fabled Enemies (Terrorist links to western intelligence)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1213939183 - Terrorstorm (history of false-flag terrorism)
And finally, to see what the 9/11 truth movement has grown into.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6264750761 9/11 Truth Rising

If you can watch all of those, and still have reason to disagree then I would LOVE to speak to you at length about it. Do you have the stones to watch them and investigate?

[TheBoyChris]

In truth, I guess we can never *really* know - I'm purely going on my gut, and my gut says that there are a lot of corrupt people in high places, but that the mass atrocities that happen in the world aren't part of a government wide conspiracy. The government is constantly under surveillance, especially in this country and the states.

It's a really tough debate. If someone in government abuses their power to run drugs out of Columbia, is the government as a whole corrupt or just that one man and his clique?

[Mango]

If someone in government abuses their power to run drugs out of Columbia, is the government as a whole corrupt or just that one man and his clique?

Look, Dyncorp got caught running giant kidnapping and slavery rings. It all came out in the House Hearing on FY06 Dept. of Defense Budget, March 11, 2005. Rumsfeld said they were 'put in the penalty box'. The penalty box!? It even came out that nothing actually happened to Dyncorp, they just changed their name.

Military contractors. Corporate elite. Who runs things? You gotta take all these individual pieces of information, then look at it in the big picture.

Drug War:
http://www.powderburns.org/ - Read this book!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ju ... mandos.htm - Former DEA Agent: Mexican Commandos Killing In South West US To Protect Bush Drug Cartel