USA 2008 Elections

[Sathor]

Different surveys showed that about 90% of the people (85 to 90%) would have voted Obama in Germany. McCain might be a honourable man, but I think America does not need another hero of war now. The least thing the world needs is war. The change is needed. The democracy seems still to work ok in the USA, although the contrary was feared.
The American people woke up from the fear and ignorance caused by the Bush government and decided the government has to change.

Those bitter republicans always remind me of harcore-christian bavarians in Germany: Fools back in some forlon village on the food of some hill, fearing about an invasion by communist forces or arab terrorists. Wake up, people, Bush certainly made everything worse. And McCain wouldn't make it better. Palin would maybe even accidently hit the RED BUTTON, dumb as shit as she is.

For myself, I hope Obama can at least fulfill some of the hopes the American people and the whole world put into him.

[medestruit]

I love when people in other countries speak about things like that...as if they even knew what they were talking about. For the last time, the general consensus of the republican party is yes, they lost...but they moved on already. It's the democrats who are gloating and making a huge deal of things.

[k-dawg]

I love when people in other countries speak about things like that...as if they even knew what they were talking about. For the last time, the general consensus of the republican party is yes, they lost...but they moved on already. It's the democrats who are gloating and making a huge deal of things.

you should read the bbc.co.uk.

they have great un-biased stories about both parties...
i honestly think were screwed NOT BECAUSE OBAMA IS PREZ.

but because the Democrats own EVERY POWER IN THE COUNTRY!
anything can be passed.

-.-
this scares me.

not that we have a black prez. not that we have a demo. prez.
but because we dont have balance in power.

ahh.
o well.

i see McCain as a good guy. i feel ashamed that i am a supporter of him. from the reactions of his crowd. ugh.
pisses me off.

-.-

[medestruit]

BBC has never been un-biased. NEVER.

And like I said...Republicans have not been the ones to throw fruit at their president, regardless of what party he was from.

But oh well, that's really the least of my issues with this presidency. I had a long, interesting read/chat with people on a story posted on ESPN.com about Donovan McNabb voting for the first time just because of a black president. Just makes me realize how strong reverse-racism is. I am from the South, and honestly...racism is FAR from prevalent, even though people seem to think we're all racist for what happened leading up to the 60's. Mind you, I'm from Atlanta, home of the King family; he is a prevalent figure in our city even postmortem. Sure, selective racism still happens, but it's not as big as people seem to think. This whole idea of a black president isn't huge, especially in the current younger generation who couldn't give 2 fucks about color. If you would like to read the story, it can be found here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3685206

I think it's a lot of general ignorance like that that pushes the race card to the extents that it is. Here is someone who is supposed to be a role-model, and the only reason he voted, for the first time in his life, is because a black candidate was on the ballot.

edit- and while I was looking for that link, I found this one: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3686028

It just seems "best man for the job" won't ever be good enough for people. White, black, yellow, green, pink...best qualified should, and in a lot of cases wins when not influenced by political gain/agenda.

I don't care: cracker, graham cracker, brownie, fortune cookie...I'll eat them all.

[Sacul15]

PS. Sacul, you talk about putting the needs of the country first and protecting your interests, don't know if you've heard the news but the Powellpoint presentation (I love that one) was a big lie, Weapons of Mass destruction are a nice buzzword but a lie, and there is no Iraq - Terrorist connection except for the fact that the terrorists were also a thorn in Saddam's side. And "you" even put Saddam there which I still love as that little touch of irony and gives you that "you get what you deserve" feeling.

Upon reflection I believe that going into Iraq was a mistake (although I think an immediate withdrawal would be an even bigger one). What I mean is that the points you made were the reasons we shouldn't have gone in, not because the UN told us not to. Imagine if there really were WMDs (which all the information said there was) and we didn't go in and they were used against us. It's easy to look back and say we made a mistake, but I think any sensible person in Bush's shoes would have made the same choice. In any case, the way we fought Iraq was a greater fluke than actually going in.

The elctoral college has no benefits.

One man, one vote. That's how it should be.

Makes sure no unqualified but popular candidates like celebrities are allowed to run (oh wait...)
Gives people in smaller states a voice.
Prevents people in (predominately poor) urban areas from always deciding the election.
Eliminates fraud.
Maintains separation of powers.
Allows for adaptability to face election problems.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

The American people woke up from the fear and ignorance caused by the Bush government and decided the government has to change.

Yes, by turning the entire government over to the opposing party. Listen, I have no problem with Obama being president, I just need to day that. My only problems are the undivided government and chiefly the attitude of the populace. Everyone talks about how the last eight years were a living hell and all that, but think about, Obama isn't going to change how every day plays out from when Bush was in office. I know I will regret this, but I kinda like Bush. I appreciate what he has done. It's hard fro me not to when all this blind hate is directed towards him. People, stop hating the man for his faults and think about other things. You can't have it both ways. Bush can't be an evil mastermind manipulating the American people for the first few years and then be an utter retard for the last few.

Fools back in some forlon village on the food of some hill, fearing about an invasion by communist forces

If I remember correctly, that HAS happened before, but who am I to say this, only history is on my side. Don't write people off do easily because they disagree with you.

And McCain wouldn't make it better.

Easily said when he isn't in office.

And this is why McCain's campaign is so disgracefull. Dem's weren't this outraged and insane and worried after 2000, we didn't like it, but we weren't running around screaming like chicken's with our heads cut off.

If I remember correctly, this was exactly the attitude many people had DURING the Bush presidency. And its also easy to say the Dems would have reacted well to losing this year when they've won. But you can't say that, you just can't. For example, here in California there was a prop 8, which allowed homosexuals the rights of marriage but just not the name of marriage. To me, I don't really care if passed or not, but I have heard so many public outcries against its passage. Tons of people are going around pissed off saying that the central valley(where I was born and raised) are rednecks and dumb hicks(which I like to think I am not). And yet, they just won the presidency and the congress, but they complain about something as little as this. They're a bunch of sore losers despite the fact that they've WON EVRYTHING ELSE. I don't get it. The moral here is that you can't say any party would have reacted better or not. Even if the Dems didn't run around like chickens in 2000 there were many claims that Gore was the true president along with much argument over Florida. Face it, both parties would react just as badly(and have in the past).

I even feel a bit sad for McCain, his crowd are a bunch of sore losers apparently, as his audience had been booing on more than one occasion when he talked about Obama as not someone to fear but to support.

I don't like the sore losers any more than you do, but remember they don't indict the whole campaign. McCain is a good man.

It gave me the sense that they were mad at his "failure" and that they would've just voted for anyone but a democrat and if that were true that'd be kind of sad.

Explain how that is any different than how it played out on the other side. Notice the Democratic control of government. The Dems are exactly the same way, they threw out the GOP because of Bush, ensuring a Democratic congress. I don't think the intentions of many Dems were any better of those McCAin supporters you spoke of.

don't know if you've heard the news but the Powellpoint presentation (I love that one) was a big lie

If history tells us right, a few people may argue with you, them being the Kurds. Powell said that Iraq possessed three kinds of weapons, chemical, biological, and nuclear. And if we take into account that he gassed his own people, I think its fair that at least one of those was right. And I seem to remember Saddam building a very large artillery piece with which to shell Israel from afar. I don't know about you, but that seems destructive enough.

don't recall her name but she asked herself whether they were doing the right thing and not becoming the evil themselves, well turned out she was right.

I usually try to keep myself in check, but I can't just stand by when you say this. What you're asying is that we're "evil" because we invaded Iraq, we're "evil" because we deposed an evil(verified!) dictator, because we found ourselves in a ignorant jihad and were forced to remain? So, all the great thinsg we've done go up in smoke fro one mistake? So the world doesn't like us, they think we're evil. Well, my friends, let me tell you this, public opinion doesn't decide who's evil. Get over your self-righteousness.

But back to the election. The theme of this all is that okay, some of us didn't want Obama, but we got him, so we can't go back and change things now, live with it. As for the other side, realize that deposing the entire opposition party will not make things better, and don't get caught up in your own self-righteousness. You voted for a man, not the messiah.

But regardless, we've reached a new time, be optimistic, let's see how things work out.

[medestruit]

You know the best thing about Bush, and why I don't see him as a failure to his country? He stood by his word. If there is 1 quality in a president that is the most important, in my eyes, it's the quality of not changing your opinions to be popular among the people. Bush wasn't perfect...but guess what, the people voted him in not once, but twice. 8 years under a man who is only scrutinized for events that happened during his term that had nothing to do with him, but he had to take over.

He was tossed into 9/11, the economy took a dip...well, guess what, the economy is in a normal recession, on top of a 40 year recession. The fact that we went this long without an economic drop is a miracle, and it only made the hit that much worse. The economy, as it is built, is going to hit depressions every so often...this is that case. Did Bush have something to do with the recession? Yes, he did...was it all his fault? No, not at all. I think that is what is so hilarious about the views of the nation, and other nations abroad. They take a pick what they want to, and use that as a full case against someone. Well, I'll be damned if I didn't like Bush for sticking to his guns.

[Sorrow]

Upon reflection I believe that going into Iraq was a mistake (although I think an immediate withdrawal would be an even bigger one). What I mean is that the points you made were the reasons we shouldn't have gone in, not because the UN told us not to. Imagine if there really were WMDs (which all the information said there was) and we didn't go in and they were used against us. It's easy to look back and say we made a mistake, but I think any sensible person in Bush's shoes would have made the same choice. In any case, the way we fought Iraq was a greater fluke than actually going in.

Agreed, everybody would probably act on that information, the problem is however, nobody checked to see if that information was correct, the media jumped on it and it was all fact.
Unfortunately most of it was fabricated by the CIA (the Saddam purchasing fissile material from Africa?) Doesn't that anger you? I mean, your intelligence agency is not collecting intelligence but actively contributing to not only the deaths of your soldiers but also countless civilians.

What you're asying is that we're "evil" because we invaded Iraq, we're "evil" because we deposed an evil(verified!) dictator, because we found ourselves in a ignorant jihad and were forced to remain? So, all the great thinsg we've done go up in smoke fro one mistake? So the world doesn't like us, they think we're evil. Well, my friends, let me tell you this, public opinion doesn't decide who's evil. Get over your self-righteousness.

Evil is pushing it sure, but Saddam is one of many dictators put into office by the CIA ! You put him there, is he evil? yes, did the CIA know about that? Yes. Did they put him into office? Yes, why? because it furthered some sneaky agenda to stop (probably) communism or whatever.

Did you know that by now -and these are estimates- over a million iraqis have died violent deaths up until the end of 2007? probably some 500.000 can be attributed to US / Nato / name a country bombings and military actions taken.
And that roughly 90% of the casualties in the iraq war are civilians? where are those precision bombs and high tech arms then?

You can claim you're on some righteous war or side but you're simply not.
The people wanted retribution for 9/11 and they got it, in force, and now there are a lot of angry people in line waiting for some training or bomb to be delivered so they can get revenge.

May I also add that you're in the wrong country? Terrorists are mostly being trained in Afghanistan, we're over there as well and we're doing a great job on rebuilding but there are a few hardcore fanatics who keep ruining it for us. Unfortunate that we can't get rid of those people with conventional arms.

You know the best thing about Bush, and why I don't see him as a failure to his country? He stood by his word.

Yeah that's a real achievement...
I think that it's a lot more important to realise your mistakes and aknowledge them and change your course of action and apologise if you've fucked up.
but no, he "stayed the course" and got your sons and daughters and a lot of innocent people killed.
congratulations dude.

[medestruit]

I have a lot of el oh el's

Sorrow, you do know why the terrorist front is in Afghanistan, don't you? And you do know...that we are also there, don't you?

As of 2006, the troops in Iraq had taken control of ~20 weapons training facilities. There terrorist front in Afghanistan, is still to this day being pursued by 2 Delta task forces(which had been operating under secrecy until ~6 months ago when now-retired Delta commander "Dalton Fury" wrote his book around the missions chasing Osama Bin Laden through the foothills on the Afghani border. So, toot your own horn all you want...but please do not act like you're doing it alone, because you really aren't. My brother in law is about to take his 3rd tour, I have much more trust in his perception of what he's doing than that of slanderous media.

I don't even try to act like I know a damn thing about what the Dutch are doing, so I honestly will not comment on them and what they are/aren't doing. I think the funnier aspect of this is...who acts on these type issues if we don't? Nobody. If we didn't go overseas for Sadam and for terrorism, nobody would have done a damn thing. I guess being the one of the "only remaining superpowers" is like living on the edge of a knife. Either way you wall, you're going to get cut.

This runs full circle. The typhoon that his southeast Asia...the U.S. got criticized for not giving more, when we spent over 10 times that of the closest donor(which was Japan). The day the U.S. does not get involved in world issues, as it seems the world wants the U.S. to bugger off and not get involved with anything, will be the same day we get all sorts of pissers and moaners that we aren't helping.

[Sorrow]

I have a lot of el oh el's

Glad that someone sees humour in all this, I wouldn't be so happy if it was the Netherlands making the mistakes your country has made, and we're in it as well... did you know our government is actually prohibiting formal investigation into why we joined the Iraq war and how all of this came to pass, why we apparently joined the bandwagon so soon?

when I mentioned "we" in afghanistan I meant the coalition not the dutch, sorry for that, I can understand why you interpreted it differently.

[RawMeat3000]

All I have to say is:

http://i35.tinypic.com/15s57c4.jpg

[NightWolf]

All I have to say is:

http://i35.tinypic.com/15s57c4.jpg

I wouldn't mind seeing him in office.

[Meotwister]

heh what the heck, I'll throw my hat in on post-election, election debating.

Evil is pushing it sure, but Saddam is one of many dictators put into office by the CIA ! You put him there, is he evil? yes, did the CIA know about that? Yes. Did they put him into office? Yes, why? because it furthered some sneaky agenda to stop (probably) communism or whatever.

Saddam was not directly planted by the CIA like I believe the president of Iran was in the 60s. Saddam was a member of the Ba'ath party that were involved in a coup of the previous government. During a counter-coup he was imprisoned but released by his cousin and employed by the new government. He worked up the ranks and later worked on constructing their secret police force (eg Gestapo) that were loyal to him and then the Ba'ath (around this time 'dispatching' 7000 individuals on charges of being 'communists'). He basically let the general resign due to 'bad health', then in 79 approached the Revolutionary Command Council and read a list of enemies of the state (which included many people in the same room) and they were lead out of the council to be killed within a day of this - something he participated in as well.

May I also add that you're in the wrong country? Terrorists are mostly being trained in Afghanistan, we're over there as well and we're doing a great job on rebuilding but there are a few hardcore fanatics who keep ruining it for us. Unfortunate that we can't get rid of those people with conventional arms.

The intel at the time of the invasion (from the CIA and MI6 and other agencies based on fact) showed that Saddam had WMD's and probably that there was connection between Saddam and terrorist organizations in the region (I can't say for sure because I can't claim to know all the intelligence they had but this would make since barring the possibility of global imperialism). Y'know Joe Biden believed/or believes Saddam had WMD's as well, regardless of whether you think he did or not its still an interesting watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiPHhKvqfs8

Yeah that's a real achievement...
I think that it's a lot more important to realise your mistakes and aknowledge them and change your course of action and apologise if you've fucked up.
but no, he "stayed the course" and got your sons and daughters and a lot of innocent people killed.
congratulations dude.

Well going into Iraq is still debatable as a mistake.. now you could say the way it was handled as being a mistake but thats something he's admitted before. He didnt say, "well we kinda screwed it up over there.. lets get out now that we know this." Instead he stayed there and tried to fix things and for the most part has succeeded with strategies like the surge (which Obama was against and later ate his words for).

Bush is an odd president. He's one thats voted in twice but has had a rough go at things the whole way through. I don't believe his legacy will be really revealed until years down the road when partisan politics doesnt interfere with perception.

Harry Truman had the highest and lowest approval ratings ever recorded, I believe leaving with the lowest, now we have George Bush who has had even more extreme approval ratings higher and lower, obviously leaving with the lower. I'm not saying he's as good of a president as Truman was, I'm saying popular perception at the time doesn't determine the legacy of a president.

Thats kind of my final sentiment on Bush.

As for Obama winning, it's fantastic that a half African-American can win the presidency. It shows how far the country has come in race relations and possibly closes a chapter of hate and violence that has been around since the close of the Civil War.

Things I don't like:
People voting for Obama because he's "one of us" (ie black people) and I've seen plenty of it here in Memphis.

People voting against Obama because he's black. Oh it happened because thats the nature of ingrained racism.

Lastly, people voting for Obama because he's black and thats progressive. Same for Palin (though it mattered less here). If we as a nation had really come far we wouldn't even care what race or gender they were and instead would focus on qualities and experience needed to be president and decide what policies would lead us out of a recession.

[Sathor]

Yes, by turning the entire government over to the opposing party. Listen, I have no problem with Obama being president, I just need to day that. My only problems are the undivided government and chiefly the attitude of the populace. Everyone talks about how the last eight years were a living hell and all that, but think about, Obama isn't going to change how every day plays out from when Bush was in office. I know I will regret this, but I kinda like Bush. I appreciate what he has done. It's hard fro me not to when all this blind hate is directed towards him. People, stop hating the man for his faults and think about other things. You can't have it both ways. Bush can't be an evil mastermind manipulating the American people for the first few years and then be an utter retard for the last few.

Obama can not change everything, although the US president has for more powers then most other presidents. The german chancellor, for instance, does have a lot less power. The british prime minister does have a lot less power. But he is certainly a better representer for America in this time: He is young, dynamic, appreciated by many other world's leaders, while McCain is a war-worn hero who puts a great deal of attention to his wounds and the stuff he had to endure. He might have been the right president a while ago, or will be in future, but not this time.
If the American people want an undivided government, it is their choice. One man, one vote, that is democracy. Great progress can be made, and the democratic principles must protect the constitution. If the American people allow another government to do things they do not support, it is their own fault.
I also understand America might have another interpretation of democracy (bombing the shit out of a country and deciding democracy is the right thing for another people).

If I remember correctly, that HAS happened before, but who am I to say this, only history is on my side. Don't write people off do easily because they disagree with you.

I do not remember the USA ever being invaded by communist forces.

[Sathor]

The intel at the time of the invasion (from the CIA and MI6 and other agencies based on fact) showed that Saddam had WMD's and probably that there was connection between Saddam and terrorist organizations in the region (I can't say for sure because I can't claim to know all the intelligence they had but this would make since barring the possibility of global imperialism). Y'know Joe Biden believed/or believes Saddam had WMD's as well, regardless of whether you think he did or not its still an interesting watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiPHhKvqfs8

You claim the intel were facts. I think most people agree today that facts are highly dubious, especially when it comes to CIA and MI6. I do not think the WMDs were the real reason. Do you know why? Because North Korea is still huge and alive. You can't claim the US invaded Iraq for WMDs or the freedom of the people (which they aren't, the country is in a terrible civil war for a few years now). They did it for contracts. Exxon, Shell ... etc