What's with the 'love-in'?

[tundra_cool]

I'm on OP's side of this discussion as well. My favorite dev. community is HL2 World and I post all of my design there because I see it as a more helpful place, critically. I've noticed that Interlopers is the place for technical, how-to tutorials but I'm not interested in those as much as how I just want to post a screenshot to see if others can spot any flaws. A little more on the communities, and using the popular opposite again, I know HL2 World is a different mindset to the outlook of design and output of motivation. Most of the work posted there is so much more casual than the forums here.

It's almost as if this website requires some unnecessary fantasized standard from its users to post a thread (look at the portfolio forum -- I mean... really?) This place seems like people try too hard to be 'professional' when it clearly isn't. Setting the mood and co-op environment through a message board isn't as great as it may sound when it just doesn't work. I have to point out that MapCore is more believable in the e-formal aspect for me since there are a handful of users who actually are in the industry and who really do frequent it more on terms of casual individuality instead of this wannabe work-place ethic. And ModDB's bunch of regular posters are a borderlining joke.

I haven't stuck around here for long but I already know which of you are most likely to say 'Nice job!' in a thread just before leaving it, not that that's so bad. I'm not even sure if they ask themselves the benefits of their post when the author clearly frequents for criticism. My motivation to complete a project comes from the 'grosses,' not the 'looks awesomes.' Of course it's courteous to assure others that they're on the right path when they question themselves or need the support but I could only take a 'nice job!' seriously if somebody were standing behind me or playing my game in-person and speaking on impulse instead of taking a minute to click the reply button and type it out. The differences in seeing a 'nice job!' on somebody's face while playing are incredibly different from being typed out, as you could have guessed.

I know I'm being fault-finding and cynical -- I wish more artists would be as well. Remember that you don't need three paragraphs to tell me the superficial flaws of my screenshot. Just reply with 'gross' and I'll love you long time.

[Surfa]

Man that post was gross.

Anyway:

I'm on OP's side of this discussion as well.

Remember that you don't need three paragraphs to tell me the superficial flaws of my screenshot. Just reply with 'gross' and I'll love you long time.

Wait huge contradiction there.

It's almost as if this website requires some unnecessary fantasized standard from its users to post a thread (look at the portfolio forum -- I mean... really?) This place seems like people try too hard to be 'professional' when it clearly isn't. Setting the mood and co-op environment through a message board isn't as great as it may sound when it just doesn't work. I have to point out that MapCore is more believable in the e-formal aspect for me since there are a handful of users who actually are in the industry and who really do frequent it more on terms of casual individuality instead of this wannabe work-place ethic. And ModDB's bunch of regular posters are a borderlining joke.

We have quite a few members of users that are actually in the industry, although a lot of them have been slightly quieter than they once were.

I haven't stuck around here for long but I already know which of you are most likely to say 'Nice job!' in a thread just before leaving it, not that that's so bad. I'm not even sure if they ask themselves the benefits of their post when the author clearly frequents for criticism. My motivation to complete a project comes from the 'grosses,' not the 'looks awesomes.' Of course it's courteous to assure others that they're on the right path when they question themselves or need the support but I could only take a 'nice job!' seriously if somebody were standing behind me or playing my game in-person and speaking on impulse instead of taking a minute to click the reply button and type it out. The differences in seeing a 'nice job!' on somebody's face while playing are incredibly different from being typed out, as you could have guessed.

Comments like "gross" still don't help you in anyway except maybe either ruin your spirit or make you more determined to do better. Now maybe alot of the people on this forum aren't in the industry but they are sure close to the level expected and can give technical and visual feedback on maps in order for the mapper to improve. For instance saying 'gross' doesn't help one bit at all. Saying something like 'The rooms feels a little bland try adding some storage crate in the corner near the pipe' or The main focus of this area seems to be the dead body in the middle yet all the clutter around seems to be drawing my eye away from it, try placing object slightly rotated in order to give a smooth path to the dead body in the center' now these example aren't great but they demonstrate the point, that given people in-depth feedback helps them get into the mind-frame of the professional artist also it helps improve the map or model or whatever. This improvement in my opinion would spew the artist on more than the motivation to improve gained from stupid comments like '"ewwwww Gross'.

[coder0xff]

Looking at this from a completely different perspective, I'd say that something like "gross" would be useless to me. As an artist of programming ( lol ) my goal is to make something elegant and functional. When I make a program it's for a reason, and if it's not cutting it, not only should I want to know why, but I need to know what's wrong with it, lest my efforts be wasted on something that didn't become what it was supposed to be.

I guess what it comes down to, the only time "gross" would be helpful is when the creator can look at it themselves and say, "yeah that is gross." If you are looking for well defined critique why not just ask for it? If you don't really give as shit why not say your not asking for it?

People post their work so that people will look at it. Do us a favor and say what you want back.

[Woe Kitten]

I think a lot of good things have come out of this thread. At the very least it has made it clear how little consensus there is on best practice when offering feedback.

Here is a little sumarry of things that I think have been said in this thread that will help to improve our quality of feedback:

Try to offer feedback with depth:
- If you want to say something is great, try to explain why you think it is great
- If you want to say something is bad, try to point out where it is weak and offer suggestions that would help to make the map stronger

Try to avoid making it personal:
- If someone is offering feedback on your map and you don't like it, remember that the feedback is about the map and not about you as a human being. Read the feedback carefully, digest it and try to get the most use out of it that you can. If you think the feedback is personal then say so and politely ask if the person giving feedback could rephrase their crit in a way that is more helpful.
- If you are offering feedback try to focus on the map itself rather than the mappers skills. Point out ways of making the map better and say what areas you like if any.

Take the feedback:
- If you put your map out there, please don't expect everyone to coo about it. This forum has some of the best level designers out there as regular members and they aren't necessarilly going to be as impressed by your work as you'd like them to be.
- When people offer feedback, do your best to learn from it rather than defending your map.

If you don't have time to do a proper post, say so:
- If you are just flying by to say 'Great job' then try to say why you aren't offering feedback.
- Try to be in control and not 'gush'.
- It only takes a few seconds to say why you liked something so try to add that wherever possible.

[Rick_D]

Just reply with 'gross' and I'll love you long time.

People hardly ever post for honest critcism. They will defend their shitty work to the limits of the earth. It's hard to keep typing out well thought out critiques of someones work and they just respond with "Yeah but.. etc".

Also, I wouldn't like to go the other route of everyone being overly critical (for whatever professional or personal reasons..). Some people just aren't very good at giving criticism, and believe rudeness is the same thing as blunt-speaking.

I seem to be posting here more often. I must be bored.

[KILLA-COW]

A-fucking-men to that.

[TicTac]

Rick, I know what you mean (and how people tend to avoid criticism). This is why I try and remind people to criticize as well as compliment/flame/whatever my projects. Just saying "THIS BLOWS" doesn't help, but saying "THIS BLOWS BECAUSE IT'S FULLBRIGHT" does. Kinda.
I don't remember exactly what I used to post, but it was something like "Compliments fan the fire, but criticism is the fuel to keep it burning". I know, it sounded better in my head >.<

[cdxx]

I just want to add that I think a lot praise comes from mappers that judge a given map based off their own abilities and not to something like a pro developer like Valve would release.

so what ends up happening is that the baseline people use to critique a maps is always different a rarely held to the same standards.

It maybe a harsh reality, but people need to standardize on a baseline to critique maps on. Keep it simple, use valve standards (that's my personal internal critique baseline) It may be a harsh reality for some as it might seriously deflate some egos, but in the end it will only help those that are serious about level design and help them produce "real" quality maps.

[Hollow]

hmm, with this, i think i sit right on the fence...

i've been following this site for maybe 4 years on and off..dont' usually post often but just generally read/look up the ridiculous volumes of content created here (i know it says i joined last year, but i created a new account because i forgot my old password - search the user Chaffing_Weasel - thats me when i was 16! )
.....annnnyyywwwhooooo de-railing there....

I think that the users from this website give the best constructive critisism in general, I've always seen interlopers as the mature, productive mapping end of the spectrum and i think most feedback is well written and highlight points of interest/concern, but in a manner that spurs the mapper on to improve.

I like to believe that this is how most feedback SHOULD be, but sometimes, its not necessary or can look a little elitist. i do prefer most of the time when people give a detailed response, but it can eventually turn into a lecture or pointless nitpicking, which can in turn be counter-productive and make the mapper hate their work...I've seen a fair few times where this has happened but isnt actually explaining, well, anything about the maps faults/highlights..sometimes it needs a swift deadpan comment to get to the point, but maybe not so far as KILLA-COW goes

On the flipside, the "looks cool" "Nice!" stuff infuriates me stupidly, because its having the same effect of not explaining anything, and sometimes even looks like a half-arsed reply..but i dunno, if only there was a way to strike a balance between the two extremes....but then again, each individual responds differently to a reply, so its actually subjective....

wait...*thinks*

i just wrote all that shit and didn't come to a conclusion? PAHHH, its pointless, you're never gonna please anyone!Just be honest! thats all i say! and take the critisism for what it is! maybe Killa Cow's method IS right? lol

On a side note, I agree with cdxx that maybe there should be some sort of baseline, to where people worked to that standard..thats exactly what i do, i try and polish my levels up to match some of the crazy amazing stuff on these forums, or valve's work..its a nice ambitious target, but hey

[EDIT:] oh dear lord, i just looked at my first posts 4 years ago...and it stinks of teenage neeeewwwbb

[dookiebot]

It maybe a harsh reality, but people need to standardize on a baseline to critique maps on. Keep it simple, use valve standards (that's my personal internal critique baseline) It may be a harsh reality for some as it might seriously deflate some egos, but in the end it will only help those that are serious about level design and help them produce "real" quality maps.

What does "real" quality maps mean? I have seem some great looking maps that had gameplay as exciting as sitting in traffic. There have been some maps of obvious quality control issues visually that I preferred over more polished maps simply because the gameplay was fun. You would never know just by screenshots. It seems to me it takes more than offering advice in a forum to improve people as level designers. Otherwise you are just improving artistry.

To me we are dealing with different people at different skill levels in the same space. I would think a significant percentage here would like to push that collective group of people in a direction of continual improvement. Some probably really are doing it for fun and not interested in topping anyone else in skill. The trick is understanding where you are at and the other person is at and being able to function within that space and remain real about it.

And by real I mean remaining relative to that other person. I could put down everyones map and follow it up with 'Sorry that is just me, there are very few maps that actually impress me'. To me that's just as pompous as a professor that starts the semester off telling students that 40% of the prior years class flunked his course. He thinks he is telling people how hard he is but he doesn't realize he is admitting to his students he doesn't know how to teach.

[Fearian]

An easy rule of thumb to post by (live by?) that always helps communitys grow is to always try and appreciate critically. Eg:

Wow looking good! -Wrong!
Wow looking good - the lightings a bit dark though, add some soft secondary lights to fill it out a bit! - Give a suggestion!

Nothings ever finished, and offering a solution is the best kind of criticism.

Also, if something's bad, don't skip by it, try to leave something helpful.