US Economic Issues...

[MayheM]

Ok lets focus back on economics a little. I saw some news today that bothered be and had a thought...

I saw some of the banks have taken money and spent it on bonuses for exectuives in the banks. I am sure most of you have heard about the spending of said bailout moneys on extravigant parties and so on. Obviously there is something major leauge wrong with this. They are getting this money to keep the bank alive and if thet can spend this money on pointless things then they did not need the money in the first place.

So my idea is this... (and it is hard for me to say this becaseu i do not like government jumping into everything) fire all executives who took part in this crap, strip them of thier money and toss them in jail. then take that money from the bailout back and spred it to the people who either
A. work for the bank
or
B. hold intrest baring accounts with those banks.
This would help far more then just the few high-ups and would give a lot of money to people who actually need it. This would also likely stimulate some growth in the economy...

Obviously this will never happen but I figured i would put it out there...

[MattD]

It's really assuring though to see the president quickly respond to these outrageous events. It's great to see him (or atleast pretend to) echo the same feelings of the general public. Since this recession began, every ridiculous stunt by corrupt executives has been called out by the President, it's great to see someone high up finally on our side. Oh, and these executives all need to be fired imho.

[Psy]

What a ridiculous thing to do. I share the same sentiment as Mayhem.

[Dionysos]

Same here.

Also, Obama seems to be just as "bad" as Bush. He is effectively blocking a ruling by the supreme court whether the president can detain people without a charge for an indefinite amount of time. Sure, if I were a dictator Id prolly want that, but thats not the issue.

Nothing is changing, and I knew it He only says what people want to hear. The bailout money isnt fixing the problem responsible for the crash in the first place, thats the problem.

[MayheM]

It's really assuring though to see the president quickly respond to these outrageous events. It's great to see him (or atleast pretend to) echo the same feelings of the general public. Since this recession began, every ridiculous stunt by corrupt executives has been called out by the President, it's great to see someone high up finally on our side. Oh, and these executives all need to be fired imho.

I would not really say Obama has quickly responded to the outrageous events. He does not really seem to be in touch with public opinion. He seems to be focusing more on his agenda rather then the economic issues. In his defense though it is not like he has a stable staff to work on it. Geithner just looks like a weasle, in fact he reminds me of this guy in Billy Madison...

I jsut dont trust him... I know it is crazy but anyone who did not properly file thier taxes should not be put in charge of the countrys money. If it was because he did not understand the laws and it was a mistake it almost makes it worse. He was a bad appointment and I think it says a lot that they can not find anyone to work with him...

[MattD]

The tax system is so unbelievably convoluted that i'm not surprised even experts don't know how it all fully works. Its a bit too early to praise him for getting us out of this mess, but it's also too early to condemn him for it. So far, this administration has been far more transparent than the bush administration. Has Obama picked the right people? Only time will tell.

[Sacul15]

Just a bit of humor, don't take it too seriously.

[MayheM]

The tax system is so unbelievably convoluted that i'm not surprised even experts don't know how it all fully works. Its a bit too early to praise him for getting us out of this mess, but it's also too early to condemn him for it. So far, this administration has been far more transparent than the bush administration. Has Obama picked the right people? Only time will tell.

So far, it is looking like he has not chosen the right people. It also appears he is a bad judge of character. This was stated, by the right, during the election when the topic of Ayers and Wright came along. It was brushed aside and not given much weight by the media which begs the question why? He has shown that he does not look into people background or check facts before he appoints people and obviously does not ahve people around him to help him with that (dispite the fact he obviouls needs it) He also seemingly has a nack for surounding himself with shady people.

You are right to say it is too early to tell, but it is never too early to get worried when things appear to be going south...

I am trying really hard not to be overly judgemental but it is really hard when things are getting worse every day...

[Mr-Jigsaw]

All I know is that I don't want to hear anything more about inheriting this situation or whatever. Come on, you don't need that. We know the last eight years weren't the best but it wasn't like Bush broke the entire system. Remember that congress has much more power than the presidency. And I don't think its fair for Biden to claim that Obama is in a worse situation that when Roosevelt took office, he's not. But that is not to say things aren't dark now, they're just not as bad.

[MayheM]

All I know is that I don't want to hear anything more about inheriting this situation or whatever. Come on, you don't need that. We know the last eight years weren't the best but it wasn't like Bush broke the entire system. Remember that congress has much more power than the presidency. And I don't think its fair for Biden to claim that Obama is in a worse situation that when Roosevelt took office, he's not. But that is not to say things aren't dark now, they're just not as bad.

That is just thier way of covering thier asses. If things dont work out they are making sure they can blame it on Bush. I will be first to say Bush did some messed up stuff but our government is set up so he does not have full control. The president is not a King. Checks and Balances make sure that is not that case. So thinking of it that way Bush had to deal with a Democratic running Congress and Senate (at least for the last 3 years), however Obama is now able to pass whatever he wants since the Dems ruin, I mean run it all now...

[Mr. Happy]

It is laughable at best to think that everyting that caused our currently dire circumstances happened after 2006. I mean you are just completely and tottally joking right? The deregulation that lead to improper securitization and leveraging of non-liquid assets, and the dangerous options trading on those assets to boot, has been long in the making. Yes you can probably trace the first major mistake back to Woodrow Wilson, a democrat, but the conservative marching call of free-markets and deregulation removed whatever safeguards were put in place way back when.

You cannot say it was all the dem's, can't say it was all the repub's, you can say that the bush policies accelerated this, but given the past 100 years of history it was inevitable. At least a few democrats who actually understand the math underlying our system and it's problems have tried pushing back, but I don't know of a single conservative (besides ron paul) who truly understands the issues (by truly I mean better than me, it's sad I know so little yet so much more about this than most senators) and has suggested good solutions. Most either cling to "regulate and oversight durr" or "free trade durr" both of which are too idealistic for the cold hard reality that our financial system is broken at the core.

[MayheM]

Happy I am not saying that at all. But what I will not do is point fingured at the right alone. Government on both sides let us down. The ritious in washington did not fight for what is right. and most jsut let things go... Some warned about impending issues and people pushed those ideas asside and did nothing. Poloticians on the right and the left messed up. I can admit that. But people on the left aparently can not. They put all blame on Bush and all blame on conservatives. That is the joke! Obama preaches accountability but his party takes none. Barney Frank wants to blame everything on the Republicans becaseu he does not want people to blame him. He was a big contributer to the Fanny Mea and Freddy Mac fuckup as where many other democrats. But they dont want us to look at that. after all it was under President Bush's administration that things went badly so he should get all the blame. Sure it has not been long, but lets just call it like it is, Obama has made mistakes both in his appointments on his cabinate, in the rediculous spending and the serious underestimation of the impact it will have on our future...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090320/ap_ ... ama_budget

I guess this is what change we can believe in means. Becasue you can believe this change is going to hurt us more than help us.

[dragonfliet]

Ok lets focus back on economics a little. I saw some news today that bothered be and had a thought...

I saw some of the banks have taken money and spent it on bonuses for exectuives in the banks. I am sure most of you have heard about the spending of said bailout moneys on extravigant parties and so on. Obviously there is something major leauge wrong with this. They are getting this money to keep the bank alive and if thet can spend this money on pointless things then they did not need the money in the first place.

So my idea is this... (and it is hard for me to say this becaseu i do not like government jumping into everything) fire all executives who took part in this crap, strip them of thier money and toss them in jail. then take that money from the bailout back and spred it to the people who either
A. work for the bank
or
B. hold intrest baring accounts with those banks.
This would help far more then just the few high-ups and would give a lot of money to people who actually need it. This would also likely stimulate some growth in the economy...

Obviously this will never happen but I figured i would put it out there...

Okay, I'm backing up here, but I want to address this. What most people seem to be absolutely ignorant of is related to these bonuses. These are NOT bonuses for the hell of them, these are not bonuses meant to waste money or to reward bad behavior, etc. These are bonuses ONLY IN NAME, and are actually PART OF THEIR SALARY as agreed upon in their contract. If people actually read, instead of glancing at articles (and if the media was actually dedicated to presenting information rather than spewing rhetoric), they would be aware of this fact. Provisions were actually put in place to make sure that that government didn't try and block these bonuses, do you know why? Because if the government tried to violate a private contract (which is illegal) and take these people's money, they would have been sued right quick by people with an iron-clad case and easy access to amazing lawyers. it would have cost the gvt MORE money, they people getting bonuses would probably have been awarded punitive damages, etc.

But all people can do is look at the word bonuses and they freak out. Then they start with the rhetoric again.

If this comes off as attacking anyone in this forum, I apologize, I'm really not trying to. What I am frustrated by, however, is that almost all of the arguments being put forth here are reactionary shifts of rhetoric. Oh it's all Bush and the republicans' fault, no wait it's actually the dems, not wait, it's this person, no this person. Obviously certain folks are more responsible than others, but the problem was a systemic issue that almost no one was warning about and they were wrong more often than right anyways.

I have faith in this forum and I would love to see people postulating more rationally.

@Mayhem: you can't talk about cabinet decisions that were marred by the SCANDAL OMG of one of the people owing $900 in taxes (lets be completely honest: while some of the appointments were a disappointing show of pragmatism over ideology, none of the people were exactly terrible. I mean, the most controversy about money with taxes was related to someone not paying taxes on a car that someone lent him. Who would even imagine that you have to pay taxes on that? It seems incredible that you have to, but there you go) as if it has any sort of effect on the current crisis. Also, that you disagree with the budget that Obama is proposing and do not that think he will help steer our economy in the right direction is an opinion I can get, even if I partly disagree. To assert that he seems to have no idea what sort of an impact it will have on our future, however, is a bit silly, to say the least.

~Jason

[MayheM]

Ok let me hit on a few things because i learned some things about the bonuses since last i posted this.
The bonuses, where in fact part of a contract and where in the bill that no one in congress read but passed anyway. But Giethner was on AIG's side of the contract while it was being writen and then says that he just now found out about the bonuses. He is a slimeball and a lier!!!

As for not paying $900 in taxes, I dont care if it is $1! I pay my taxes, I have held three jobs at once and had to pay more taxes at the end of the year. I took my lumps and paid them. I did not cheat the system I did not run from my responsabilities I took care of them. I guess I am just one of those crazy people who actually own up to my responsabilities... As for Dashell not knowing he was supposed to pay taxes on the car thing; it was given to him by a campaign supporter from what I understand. If you go out an by a raffle ticket and win a car... you have to pay taxes on it. So why would he not know he has to pay taxes on that car?

And yes you are right, I do not believe Obama is taking this country in the right direction. To be honest I am even more enraged since loosing my job! But, I am not the only one out there to think this. As evidence shows in the stock market that every time he gets on air the market tanks. Plus the fact that even people in his own party think he is spending to much. Plus, economic analysts have said we are heading for HUGE inflation in a few years because of all the spending. Communist China is giving us advice on spending money saying we need to be more careful... Then there are the numbers he first put out saying that he will pay down the debt over the next four years and cut it in half. Then they release the new numbers and he missed the mark by a few trillion dollars.

I do not like the fact he gets on Leno and says two phrases back to back...
(these are paraphrased)
1. We have inherited this crisis
then
2. That is one thing I am trying to do with my administation, stop the finger pointing

I think it is really coming into light that he does not have the experience or knowlege needed to run this nation. I am sick of people making excuses for him. He wants accountablity... then own up! he wants accountablity in his administration then Geithner needs to step up and tell people the truth. He needs to start fixing issues rather then putting them off for future generations.

Hey, if a few years from now, things are turned around and I am proven wrong; I will admit I was wrong and be the first in line to do so. I just wonder if Obama and his masses will do the same if he is wrong. Will all his "Hellen Kelleresk" followers be able to admit they fucked up by putting an inexperianced man in office! Or will they just point fingers and say it was all because of Bush?

[Dionysos]

By saying that the crisis is something you inherited he isnt specifically saying its Bush's fault. As dragonfliet said, its an issue with the system itself, and the system has been developed for some decades now. Simply handing out stimulus packages will not be enough.