enhanced interrogation techniques "vs" torture

[ghost12332]

I support torture techniques up to an extent. It's well proven that people will say anything in order to make the pain stop.

In logical conclusion, why use torture when it's proven not to work.

On a comment though about the Waterboarding, the CIA "Interrogators" admit that they NEVER received ANY training in the technique of Waterboarding, or general torture. Whats the point of torture if you can't even do it right?

[Mr. Happy]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

--Benjamin Franklin

Seeing as there is no real threat from terrorism, I think it's safe to say that the concept that these practices are allowable goes against the principles that this country was founded upon.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

Seeing as there is no real threat from terrorism, I think it's safe to say that the concept that these practices are allowable goes against the principles that this country was founded upon.

Stop saying this. We've already proven that there is a threat. Stop defying reality.

And I don't see a clear relation(I do see tenuous connections) between Franklin's words and the subject at hand. I can understand the Patriot Act but not this. Please explain.

It creates more animosity, makes more people hate you, apart from the moral fact (yes, morality) that it just degrades you to "their" level.

There is no such thing as a moral fact, only opinion.

[coder0xff]

By the way, the interrogators training is itself considered sensitive information - aka classified. They wouldn't say they received training in torture even under oath. That would certainly exacerbate the issue if anything.

[MayheM]

Yeah Happy I have to agree with jigsaw on this one... To say there is not threat of terrorism is beyond naive!

The notes have not been released about what information was gotten from these people but I have heard there where several attacks which where stopped by these interrogations. So to say it is or is not successful is premature. However if information that was gotten saved lives, how can you argue and say it was wrong?

[Dionysos]

Yes just ignore everything else I wrote... the thing is, even if you don't agree that doing something "bad" is making you just as bad as them, then at least accept that, since everyone else (pretty much) thinks that way, the threat of terrorism against the US will just grow.

I think what he means is that being able to kidnap and torture people without a trial is something of a loss of liberty. The threat of terrorism is minute compared to the threat of cars, bad doctors, corporate crime etc etc... but Im reiterating myself.

[Sathor]

I am much more afraid of the movements of power in governments than of terrorism. You can clearly see why, I hope. Russia, China ... terrorism isn't a real danger to the stability of our nations. Rising super powers (not necessarly in military, but in economy) in the east are the real threat to our welfare, so sorry I am to have to say this. Americans and Europeans together (with the Japenese) own like ... almost all of the world's wealth. But we are about only 8 % of our world's population. Some Taliban or whatever dudes won't change much about it. Other changes could.

[Major Banter]

It entirely depends on what you mean by torture.

For example, SAS soldiers passing selection in the early years were put through thier paces by Army Interrogation Corps (read Andy McNabs Immediate Action). Soldiers were placed in stress positions and forced to keep them. There were no beatings, no violence, just standing, hands against a wall, for 30 hours straight while being dragged off to undergo various interrogatory techniques to see if they could hold thier own.

Such techniques worked, because of the approach. People are far less likely to reveal information if they know they're going to die, and equally it's relatively easy to "zone out" of the pain of violent torture if your mind is intact. Naturally, a less strong willed individual than an SAS soldier may suffer real hardship, but torture really is a vastly varied activity.

Notably, the French used a torture technique in the Middle Ages which was incredibly effective. It involved placing someones feet in the stocks, dousing said feet in salt water and letting a goat lick off the salt (goats love the stuff). Prisoners would be in such pain from the laughter of the tickling that they would reveal anything.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

Waterboarding doesn't cause intense pain. And the suspects were not in constant fear of execution. But clearly, this shows a lack of understanding of the jihadist culture. Especially in Shi'a faith, martyrdom is a major theme. Why else would so many terrorists become suicide bombers? It's because they don't fear death. In fact, many want to be martyrs. Look at the history of the Shi'ites, starting with the Ali caliphate, the last of the Rashidun(according to Shi'a)

The threat of terrorism is minute compared to the threat of cars, bad doctors, corporate crime etc etc... but Im reiterating myself.

Sure, if an attack succeeded, some Americans or Brits would die. But hey, the amount of people would be nothing compared to our already existing problems. Right? Well, these "no threat" terrorist groups silence and murder innocent civilians every day in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. But hey, they're not from around here. Why should we care about them?

Apparently, altruism only exists in theory, now.

[R26]

We are better than them. The terrorists care nothing for human life, for human rights. When our soldiers, contractors, reporters, and civilians get captured, they are executed. They drew first blood, not us. Our actions are justified. My conscience is clear, as it should be.

The west draw the first blood. I'm talking about crusades,slavery and imperialism. I know this is way back. And I'm not saying they should be allowed to even the "score". But if there is someone in history that is "meanest", then it's us.

How can you say that terrorists care nothing for human life, they are willing to give their lives for what they believe in. Just like American soldiers.

[ghost12332]

R26 brings up a good point. The time of Jihad were experiencing now is minute compared to the 9 crusades we launched against them not to long ago.

[BillyDa59]

We are better than them. The terrorists care nothing for human life, for human rights. When our soldiers, contractors, reporters, and civilians get captured, they are executed. They drew first blood, not us. Our actions are justified. My conscience is clear, as it should be.

The west draw the first blood. I'm talking about crusades,slavery and imperialism. I know this is way back. And I'm not saying they should be allowed to even the "score". But if there is someone in history that is "meanest", then it's us.

How can you say that terrorists care nothing for human life, they are willing to give their lives for what they believe in. Just like American soldiers.

Don't get America and medieval Europe mixed up.

I am much more afraid of the movements of power in governments than of terrorism. You can clearly see why, I hope. Russia, China ... terrorism isn't a real danger to the stability of our nations. Rising super powers (not necessarly in military, but in economy) in the east are the real threat to our welfare, so sorry I am to have to say this. Americans and Europeans together (with the Japenese) own like ... almost all of the world's wealth. But we are about only 8 % of our world's population. Some Taliban or whatever dudes won't change much about it. Other changes could.

Pakistan is currently allowing Alquada to immigrate in from the North. It is believed that Northern Pakistan is pretty much saturated with Terrorists. On top of that, Pakistan's government is in shambles or at least getting close to it. That means it's a very likely possibility that Alquada could take over the government in the near future. Alquada running Pakistan then means that Alquada has nuclear weapons.

More on topic:
I honestly think water boarding is comparatively humane. It causes no physical damage. At least none that lasts. There's about a million worse techniques we could use to torture prisoners. I suppose I'm pro-torture, even though my biggest fear is being tortured (yeah, I know I'm kinda weird). If you had a prisoner withholding information on hidden biological weapons in a daycare, chances are, you'll torture him no matter how horrific it has to be.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

The west draw the first blood. I'm talking about crusades,slavery and imperialism. I know this is way back. And I'm not saying they should be allowed to even the "score". But if there is someone in history that is "meanest", then it's us.

R26 brings up a good point. The time of Jihad were experiencing now is minute compared to the 9 crusades we launched against them not to long ago.

This is, for lack of a better word, ri-goddamn-diculous. Billy is right. Don't go blaming 11th to 13th century wars, started by European powers for that matter, on America, which, as we all know, was founded in the 18th century. As for the later events, read on.

Even so, there is no blame that I would give to Europeans anyway. How many people are alive today that were involved in those actions? None. How in any possible way can you group us all together, Westerners living now in the 21st century with people who lived hundreds of years ago? There is no reasonable way. We are not the same people, hell, how many national borders are even the same? By your argument, we could blame modern Italians for the Roman Empire's conquests!

This is what was meant by the "sins of the father." Even though reason conflicts with these notions, people will still group people together despite the many years between them. Frank Herbert was right, "We pay for the violence of our ancestors." It happens, but it sure as hell isn't a justification.

How can you say that terrorists care nothing for human life, they are willing to give their lives for what they believe in. Just like American soldiers.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

[ghost12332]

What? Blame, no.

Let me explain better. I simply meant that most large religions go through some sort of violent, or persecution time. Christianity first when through it with the crusades. Judaism had quite a bit of violence (Hell, just read the old testament xD).Now its Islam's turn (Not that Islam didn't have its fair share of holy wars with the Abassid dynasties, and Saladin calling his holy war against the crusades.)

[RefaelBA]

Torture is really not very effective. I see no real reason why people should torture others for information, unless they're really crappy interrogators that can't do the job.
A professional interrogator could extract information from almost anyone by various psychological methods and also by knowing to lead a conversation.
If all else fails, then there are safer truth serums today that can be applied. If you get a tough one, then it's a battle between the interrogator and the person being interrogated, and using violence is a cheap method for winning this challenge.