Government Heath care in the US

[MayheM]

I want to get some feedback from those of you who live in Europe and currently have a health care system much like the one which is on the horizon for the US (or at least proposed). I have heard both sides of the coin from people I do not trust to tell the truth. Some on the right have said it will hurt our country but they want the left to look bad, and those on the left say it is what the country needs and are seemingly unwilling to accept there is any risk to what they are trying to undertake.

So please if you live in a country where socialized medicine is offered shoot some info my way so I can better gauge how to look at this issue.

Thanks guys...

[Chopium]

I live in the U.S. I am for private medicine with some social benefits for the poor.
My friend (In London) has been complaining about the actual service at the hospitals. He said he has to wait for ~6 hours to get a doctor's attention in any low-medium grade illness. I can't exactly vouch for his words, but that's what he told me.

[Mr. Happy]

That's not unusual here in the US either. I had to wait 8 hours in an ER in Florida with a knee that was split litterally down to the bone. It depends on the hospital I think.

Anyway, I don't know anything about the issue all I know is everything, and every solution, will have problems. We just need to minimize those problems. I'm with MayheM, I don't really know what to think.

[1447]

Here in Norway, everyone gets free health care, due to our tax system. Now, the whole thing ain't working too good, because many of the hospitals are in "bad" shape, there's too many patients and/or too few doctors, etc etc. However, this isn't because the system is crappy, but mostly because the politicians are some lazy fucks.

I find the system to be a very good idea, as it means that people with little money don't have to die waiting for their treatment. I've had 1-4 major surgeries in my life (depending on how you define "major"), and while my family have never been extraordinary poor, they've never been that rich either, so it feels good to know that I didn't impoverish my family before I turned 10.

But, keep in mind that Norway is a country of a mere 4.8 million people, while the US consists of well over 300 million people. How well the system would work over there, I don't know.

[MayheM]

Yeah I have heard there are about 45 million people without health care here and this plan will still leave 39 million without it. But will cost billions or trillions of dollars. But I done know what to believe. I know I am a bit skeptical only because of the way money is being thrown around in Washington. I just wonder if everything is on the up and up...

[Mr. Happy]

It's definitely not on the up and up, but what is in Washington

All I know is the system is untenable, and needs to change. All we can do now is take a step in the right direction, but only time will tell what the right direction is and if this is part of it.

[whiffen]

I live in Canada and I would say I like it and it does work, not to say it doesn't need any tweaking though.

My experience with it is maybe 30 minutes to an hour in a waiting room, but the care is free and you get whatever medications you need at no cost.

It nice to know if you become ill or are in an accident you don't have to worry about bills.

On the other hand the service isn't as good as it could be and they could make it much more efficient, wait times can be long and there isn't enough doctors per person. Efficiency being to use computers more. Many of the files are not shared between hospitals so you could end up getting the same test done twice at a different hospital, which is a total waste of money and time.

Sure the taxes will be higher but the insurance system you guys have in place now is pretty messed up and it can't cost much more than having insurance currently does, plus you are covered for a lot more.

A good film is SICKO, I'm happy in Canada but I'm very jealous of some other places Moore had talked about.

Anyway its defiantly a step in the right direction from where you are now

[Mr-Jigsaw]

It'd be more prudent to limit malpractice liability suits first, and then see if things sort themselves out cost-wise, at least, that's what I think.

[zombie@computer]

It'd be more prudent to limit malpractice liability suits first, and then see if things sort themselves out cost-wise, at least, that's what I think.

Bingo! I think about half of the US medical costs consist of these malpractice things, plus their direct consequences (not sure about diagnosis? lets do that expensive test, cause if we miss xxx, we will get sued!).

[Sathor]

My knowledge about the current health care situation in the US mainly comes from television series, so it may not be realistic. Germany is a welfare state, which was first established during the 1880s. I had to look up the stuff, but for the Americans it might be interesting we have used such a system for 130 years - the whole of USA is only 100 years older, and it works quite well. Not perfect, of course.
For further facts about Bismarck's reforms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_B ... egislation

Anyway, although I have just had the German state principle of "the social state", I don't exactly know much about the system. I just know I have a card of my compulsury health insurance. I don't know any people who don't have. I can't think of a moment in Germany like you sometimes see in American movies/series "Sorry, we can't tread you, you aren't insured". I have no extra private health insurance, because I frankly don't need anyway. Many people have of course, but those cost extra. Your advantages with private insurance are you everything costs more. You get a single room in hospital, you don't have to wait so long (I may comment, yes, if I have a cold, waiting 2 hours to get to the doctor is common, but if you break something and it is serios, you are priority, whether compulsory or private). The hospital spends more money on you, but of course you pay quite a lot of money for that. With compulsory insurance only, I wouldn't get ceramic (plastic?) dental fillings, but amalgam. Or I pay extra for it, of course.
My insurance only covers Germany, so when I went to London last year, I had to make an extra insurance. For 7 Euros for one year. It is still valid today. They would get me a nice coffin and transfer me back to Germany, if I die abroad. Nice for 7 Euros.

Concering other social insurance things: Being unemployed is not so much of a problem. You are assigned a certain room to live (48 qm for a single person, 65 qm for a pair, married). More room if you have kids. Realistically, there is no homeless people in Germany. Of course, there are, but those maybe just don't know whom to ask. A single person will recieve about 350 euros "Hartz IV" (unemployed money) - and the states already pays your rent. For a kid, you get about 140 euros I think - until the kid is 27 years old and/or not living at home anymore.

Anyway, I think it is important that a state is a welfare state and cares about the weaker ones. But it should not go too far. For example, if you have debts here, your TV (up to a certain price!) is considered "lowest standard of living" and can't be taken away. It is just Germany is one of the richest countries in the world and the standard is really high, compared to other countries. I don't like the fact that people in an apprenticeship have mostly less money than a 40 year old unemployed dick who never worked for anything at all.

The USA should def. change something, I guess Obama will look at nations like Germany, Sweden, etc, and will pick out some of the stuff. Not all, of course.

[MayheM]

It'd be more prudent to limit malpractice liability suits first, and then see if things sort themselves out cost-wise, at least, that's what I think.

Bingo! I think about half of the US medical costs consist of these malpractice things, plus their direct consequences (not sure about diagnosis? lets do that expensive test, cause if we miss xxx, we will get sued!).

Yeah I know a kid who was applying to med school and when i talked to him about the money he would make when he finished he said "Yeah but that is before all the insurance I will need to pay"

I honestly think the big issue with our health system and the reason costs have gotten so high is because people can sew for all sorts of crazy shit in this country. Doctors have to charge more money because they have to cover their asses if something ever goes wrong. So many people are looking for a quick buck and sew over ridiculous stuff. It is one thing to have your balls cut off when you went in to have your tonsils removed, but really how often does that happen? A doctor should get sewed for that kind of thing, where it is obviously something they did wrong.

Anyway, yeah I agree with you guys. If you fix that part of the health care system the rest could very well fall into place. It just seems to me (to use an analogy) like the countries health care system had a broken leg and the plan is to cut the leg off and replace it with a prosthetic limb. They are forgoing the option of putting it in a cast. It is not really fixing the system but rather replacing it with something else.

Sather the odd way things work here are funny. I was uninsured for a long time. too old to be on my parents plan and did not have a job that offered it. But When I got sick i went to a clinic and it cost me $35 to see a doctor. The thing with "I can not treat you because you are not insured" I don't know if that actually exists. I mean I am sure things like that happen, but it is not an all the time thing. As far as I know there are a lot of people who qualify for medicade and medicare but do not use it. I am all for helping those who need help, at least to a point. But this plan seems to be more about the government taking control of one more thing. I can see the government helping out, but they dont need to stick their nose into every aspect of our lives.

If you look at the past few months and look at what the government now has control over it is scary. Some banks are now at least partially controlled by the Gov, GM is now partially run by the Gov, States who did not want to take money from the Federal Gov where told they did not have a choice. Now there is a shift towards involvement in health care. It looks very much like the government wants more and more power and wants to have their hands in everything. That frightens me.

Granted, I am one of the fortunate people who have insurance. I even have really good coverage. I just wonder if when it is all said and done, will I have the same kind of coverage and care if the government is running things. I mean look at the way they balance their budget and how corrupt so many people in Washington are. Who is to say they will not be the same way with the health care system.

All in all, I am really skeptical...

[Bema]

Living in the UK, we have the National Health Service. Everyone bitches about it, but I severly doubt people would want to see it go. Although I would like the extra money, i'm happy to pay the taxes for it. In my eyes it's an invaluable system.

Yes it could use improving, but what couldn't?

[Mr.Mguee]

don't they take like 60% percent of your paycheck? i remember one day when i was actually paying attention in English my teacher, who's from Germany, said they do but collages are free and hospital bills cost like 2 dollars. oh, i think i remember her saying that the U.S is the only country that doesn't use it.

[MayheM]

Living in the UK, we have the National Health Service. Everyone bitches about it, but I severly doubt people would want to see it go. Although I would like the extra money, i'm happy to pay the taxes for it. In my eyes it's an invaluable system.

Yes it could use improving, but what couldn't?

I am all about "HSA" Health Savings Accounts this allows you to put money aside and save it for when you need it. The thing is it is your money. You gain interest on it and can use it for any health need. I would rather them adopt that then have me pay taxes into something when I may not use it. I already pay a lot of my paycheck to taxes. In fact over 25% of my pay does to the government. Any more and I would have issue living.

I also just thought of the fact that Social Security is loosing money like mad and may not be around much longer. So if the government let that slide away and I may never, in fact most likely will never get what I payed in back, why should we trust them to handle health care.

[Sathor]

don't they take like 60% percent of your paycheck? i remember one day when i was actually paying attention in English my teacher, who's from Germany, said they do but collages are free and hospital bills cost like 2 dollars. oh, i think i remember her saying that the U.S is the only country that doesn't use it.

College/University is not really "free", although I only pay 250 Euros per semester. This fee includes a semester ticket for the federal state your university is located in (in my case, Berlin and Brandenburg - I can use public transport - city train, local trains, bus, subway etc) for basically "free"), it includes a fee so the mensa can be cheap - I only pay 1.20 euros to 2.50 euros per meal, depending on what I chose. The 250 Euros also include some other crap which I forgot. The rest is payed by the state - partly by the federal, partly by the state. If you can't afford university (conditions are a certain (not)-income of your parents and yourself and not tooo many savings), the state will make a loan. In a normal university study, that is about 5 years, the state pays you a maximum of about 35.000 euros (I think). You have to start to pay back in small rates earliest four years after you leave university to a maximum of 10.000 euros. If you pay back the whole sum at once, it recudes to 7.000 euros.

Hospital bills don't cost you a penny, if you are compulsory insured and your treatment is acknowledged. So breat ops are not payed for, because they are optical operations. If you have a heart illness or something, you won't pay a penny. You have to pay for a few medicaments yourself, but for example, if you have migraine, you won't have to pay for the medicine (noone could pay for THAT). It covers everything that is necessary, afaik. So you won't be send home because you can't pay the bill anymore. Just doesn't happen, afaik.

And you can't just sue anyone here, not possible. Just does not happen. American mentality. I guess thats your main problem.

The highest income tax in Germany is 40% I think. So there is always a big difference between gross and net, of course. Usually the money you pay for the insurance etc is abducted, so you can tell exactly how much net you get. That is what you use to calculate with. Most of the other stuff is always made by your employer, so you never see this money.

And about government involment: Truly, there are always two sides. But I guess I trust private companys about as much as the government. So I don't see a problem. So far only private companys really abused my data, as far as I know. So my trust is a bit different.

I like the situation here. I know that if I ever get really ill, the welfare state is going to take care of me. I know I won't be ruined if I have a child and that is disabled. I know all Germans in some way pay for those who don't have the luck. I accept that. A welfare state is a fine thing. If made right. It can be you. Maybe you pay more than you will ever need yourself, yes. But you might get unlucky too.