Government Heath care in the US

[Spike]

Lots of countries in Europe have socialist goverments and it isn't the end of the world. Actually, having a socialist goverment is far better than a fascist conservative one.

[zombie@computer]

ok then, ill argue a bit as well.

The death rate for something like Prostate cancer is lower in the US then it is in both Canada and Great Britain.

Prostate cancer is usually a slow growing type of cancer. The chance of you having it increases as you age, as does the deathcount. Very few people die of prostate cancer, because it grows so slowly. This is also why it is usually not treated, people will die from other stuff way before they die of the prostate cancer.

One can say that the deathcount of prostate cancer actually is the inverse of quality of health (note: not healthCARE). The healthier you are, the higher the chance of dieing of things like prostate cancer.

I have also heard government officials from Canada and Great Britain say their system is spending more money then it takes in. So in turn it is bankrupting the government.

IMHO healthcare isnt some multinational that requires to make a profit. Better health->healthier employees->better results. Its profit is scattered everywhere.

Also think of it this way...
Population of Great Britain: 60,943,912
Population of Canada: 33,212,696
Population of France: 61,538,322
Population of Germany: 82,369,552
Total of All Those: 238,064,482
Population of USA: 304,059,724

Interesting point, however, scale enlargement isnt difficult. What one hospital for 100,000 people costs, is the same as what two hospitals cost for 200,000 people.

Is health care bad in the US? I dont know. The technology is there, the knowlegde is there, and i havent heard of employment (shortage) problems there either. So in theory, it should all work. Perhaps the average american pays more than the average european (im not comparing countries, USA vs EU is a very fair comparison id think), I dont know. What i do know is that the level of healthcare we see in scandinavia and some other (smaller) western countries is probably never gonna work elsewhere. The success of it all depends on soo much things: health knowledge (eg food habits), employment, living conditions (30M town versus 30K town), scattering (300M in USA or 60M in an area the size of florida..), culture (USA = car culture, hence more accidents, hence more ER money. Sounds stupid, but it is. Furthermore, gangs, drugs, etc), politics, etc.

[AverageJoe]

...blah...
Population of Great Britain: 60,943,912
Population of Canada: 33,212,696
Population of France: 61,538,322
Population of Germany: 82,369,552
Total of All Those: 238,064,482
Population of USA: 304,059,724
...blah...

That figure is citizens only iirc.

I don't know what the actual number of uninsured are, but I know I've heard 47m alot.
TMK this number is citizens + illegals, but here is the thing I really don't understand about the whole debacle.
Just walk into an emergency room and it doesn't matter if you have insurance or not, fed law says that you're taken care of on the hospital's dime (plus a little from uncle sam).
So what the heck is this supposed $1t of taxpayer's money supposed to do if you already get all the necessary care anyway?

I think 90% of the people who had money to get care (and wouldn't be deported) but just choose not to (like me before MA put this stupid law in effect) would get care if it was just cheaper. I think there is something like 1000 health insurance companies in the US but each state only has availability to like 50 providers or whatever. The system makes no sense at all and I think adding in this public thing would just be bad. really bad. It's just too many people to cover and we already can't pay for most of the daily workings as is.

[BillyDa59]

I think Universal Healthcare would be a good thing here in the US. My ideas on this are fairly shallow, I admit, and I'm sure my opinion is heavily swayed by the bias from Michael Moore's documentary, but my mom has cancer and I thought it was pretty absurd when she told me about a bottle of pills she has that costs over $110 per pill (no joke). That just doesn't seem right that anyone should have to pay money like that to live. It's even worse because I'm sure there's a lot of family's that can't afford to keep their mother alive because of $110 pills.

[AverageJoe]

When it comes down to the nail, everything is just supply and demand. Health care has always been in a state of less supply than the demand which is why it's usually expensive, especially for specialized things like surgeries, etc. but the fact that 70% of the insurance you're paying for is bureaucratization, how the government bureaucrats think they can fix that just looks to me like a lie that will hurt alot more people than help.

[Terr]

but the fact that 70% of the insurance you're paying for is bureaucratization, how the government bureaucrats think they can fix that just looks to me like a lie that will hurt alot more people than help.

If your complaint is against bureaucracy, you're decades too late. Would you rather have the for-profit bureaucrats who may go and play the stock market with your dividends (now) or the not-for-profit bureaucrats? Asking for "no bureaucracy" is a non-starter.

One of the big differences between the USA an virtually every other industrialized nation: They've all got laws about health insurance agencies... that those insurers must be nonprofit. You can make money developing new drugs, and pioneering radical new surgeries. You just can't make money as the middleman accountant handling that pool.

I mean, seriously, what kind of "profit-driven innovation" do you really want to encourage in that field? Will they carefully care for your premiums with slow but safe growth so that they can cover people when bad things happen? Instead the upper management will probably find "innovative" new ways to invest those premiums into stock bubbles and then jump out with golden parachutes.

[nub]

And you can't just sue anyone here, not possible. Just does not happen. American mentality. I guess thats your main problem.

Pretty much. What it all draws down to for me is that there's just corrupt, greedy people controlling too much shit in the US. That's a half-assed explanation and it solves nothing, but that's what I think the main issue is with our health care system or any other broken system for that matter: greed.

I'm willing to try a new system, but government health care just sounds like a bad idea in the current state we're in. We're already in an insurmountable mountain of dept, yet they want to start this system that's going to cost them billions of dollars. Not to mention the very little trust I hardly hold towards the government.

[Cunnah]

just a point that the American health care system currently costs the government a higher percentage than it does in the UK. Thats not saying ours is better or worst just a point thats worth noting.

[Terr]

I'm willing to try a new system, but government health care just sounds like a bad idea in the current state we're in. We're already in an insurmountable mountain of dept, yet they want to start this system that's going to cost them billions of dollars. Not to mention the very little trust I hardly hold towards the government.

If could actually save money, since the uninsured may just end up in the emergency room once whatever-it-is is too serious to ignore. That cost there is shared.

True, we've got a lot of debt. But that's an argument for better regulation and taxation schemes to stop expensive-to-bail-out bubbles and to find resolutions to increasingly-vague foreign wars. Just sitting back on the health-insurance angle is unlikely to save any money compared to doing something.

[MayheM]

This thread kind of fell off for a bit. But I am curious to know what people think of what is currently going on with the bill. Things like the deals for states like Nebraska and Louisiana. If you don't know about those deals, it is essentially paying off politicians for their vote. Nebraska got a deal where the state does not have to contribute to to medicaid for life but still get the benefits. In fact the rest of the states have to pay for the people in that state.

Now I am not naive enough to say this kind of thing never happened before however I am pretty sure it has never been on this scale. The fact of the matter is Obama said things where going to be different in Washington. Though from what I have seen it is more of the same. There are bells and whistles going off in my head with this bill. It is obvious many people oppose the bill, but the powers that be are pushing harder than ever to pass it. the more they push the more resistance the people the represent mount. We need to change some things in our health care system, that is without a doubt. This drastic overhaul scares the shit out of me. It frightens me even more that there is parts of this bill that are written in such a way where they can never be overturned. That in and of its self is unconstitutional.

Anyway, I wanted to get some info from those who live in the states about what they think of what is going on with the bill right now. I really want to see if those who supported it in the past are also growing nervous about the tone in which this legislation has taken.

[Gary]

The way I look at it, wouldn't it cost more? Wouldn't it just add to the taxes? I would have to pay for other people, including people that have to goto the hospital because they shoved a some drug needle in his eye.

And like MayheM posted, the number here in the USA is much greater and sadly, more then half of that number are ether lazing(not working), drug addicts, or just stupid. And like nub said, there is way too many corrupt greedy people in power.

By the way, do not listen to anything Michael Moore has to say, I have seen his "documentaries", there, just like him, are stupid and full of shit.

[Dionysos]

"There" sure are full of shit in america.

There's really not much point in discussing this to death further, but I don't understand why it shouldn't work in the US if done properly/with a will, as it works in so many other countries (as well as can be expected mostly, and most people "here" are glad for it). Yes, the US has more people but that also means more money. Healthier population, better productiveness, more taxes. Looks like a win-win to me, not to mention the psychological effect. Then again, the US seems to be another planet entirely sometimes. The fact that the wars the US wages could fund any such system several times as far as I recall, just makes me think the will just isn't there. Maybe a defunct population is considered collateral damage as that seems to be something that is generally approved.

Drastic change in itself isn't evil. If anything, western countries should embrace it more as we discover better means to run things and evolve socially.

[Cookiez]

I live in the U.S. I am for private medicine with some social benefits for the poor.
My friend (In London) has been complaining about the actual service at the hospitals. He said he has to wait for ~6 hours to get a doctor's attention in any low-medium grade illness. I can't exactly vouch for his words, but that's what he told me.

And what he said is truth, once I waited 4 hours for the doctor on emergency and after he arrived he just gave me paracetamol.

[korge]

I think Universal Healthcare would be a good thing here in the US. My ideas on this are fairly shallow, I admit, and I'm sure my opinion is heavily swayed by the bias from Michael Moore's documentary, but my mom has cancer and I thought it was pretty absurd when she told me about a bottle of pills she has that costs over $110 per pill (no joke). That just doesn't seem right that anyone should have to pay money like that to live. It's even worse because I'm sure there's a lot of family's that can't afford to keep their mother alive because of $110 pills.

Medicine is technology. Technology costs money to create.

Sorry if it doesnt work like pirating a dvd off the interwebz; but nothing in the healthcare world is "free." Which is why tax payers are losing money to unaccounted-for illegals and uninsured Americans.

People need to look at healthcare as a business and understand what it takes to keep a business going. You cannot give product and service away for free and expect to survive. Sorry if you hate capitalism in healthcare but its what drives up competition and quality of service.

[MayheM]

I was watching something the other day and it showed Oprah over in Denmark. She was saying how wonderful and happy everyone was. They have a lot of social programs including Universal Health Care. However Oprah failed to mention the amount of money paid in taxes in that country. Sure when you have health care and schooling covered you may not need as much money as you would if you had to pay for those things yourself, but what she also failed to show was her inside a city apartment with little to no storage and when she asked them where they put their "stuff", they responded "We don't have stuff" The US is totally different from any other country. It is based on the principals of work hard and get ahead. It is what made us the envy of the world for so long. However over the last decade or so things have started pushing more towards a European way of life and not to knock other countries but I don't want that. I want this country to be the way it was meant to be. With Government in charge of protecting the nation and little else. The school I work at has a student who's grandmother is in the US Senate. She came to speak and something she said bothered me. She said simply "I believe in government". I wanted to scream out in that assembly, but held back to show respect for her office. But I staunchly disagree with what she said. People in power should not be say they believe in the powers that be and essentially the ruling class. They need to be saying "I believe in the people I represent". Politicians in the country, or at least many of them have forgotten that they are in office to speak for the people. The majority of the nation is uneasy with the current bill proposed and want it gone. So if the majority is speaking out against the bill, why are the politicians still trying to push it forward?

Some issues about some of the things they have on the table. I am not a heartless bastard and I feel for those who are ill (BillyDa, I hope your mom makes a full recovery). However like korge said, it is more than just giving the health care to people. It takes money to do that. But what many people fail to realize is that if you have a health care system that allows people to get coverage with preexisting conditions it is likely to do two things.
1) young people will still not get coverage. It will colt them less money to pay the fine for not having coverage that it would for them to pay for the coverage in the first place. However when they get sick, they will go and get coverage.
2) Since people who are sick will use their coverage right away and often the health care providers will have to balance the cost with those who are not sick. Premiums will go up for everyone. There is not way around that.

I do think health care needs reform. It needs to be made more accessible to people who currently can not afford it. Currently a big part of why health care is so expensive is the issue of tort reform. Take a look at this link if you do not know what it is. http://www.whatistortreform.com/ This is not even brought up in the health care bill now in play. Many other far easier options and far less expensive option are not mentioned at all. To me that is a shame and a big part of why the bill is so unpopular.

I have lost faith in what our government is doing. I truly feel Obama is leading us in the wrong direction. I believe with the overwhelming majority of democrats in the government my voice is not being heard. I do however see a change on the horizon. I do hope we right the ship because I am confident the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves...