Religion and Reason?

[RefaelBA]

Hello there fellow lopers, in this thread I would like to discuss something that bothers me very often.
I started this thread hoping to understand how religous people deal with inconsistencies in their religion, and how they deal with it when science (representing logic in this matter) contradicts their religion and beliefs, like in the case of evolution, the age of the world and so on.

This thread is really not meant to be offensive, I am merely trying to reach people who's lives are very different than mine, and get a glimpse of their perspective. The following is my personal opinion, I formed it myself after a lot of thinking, some very serious research and due to my own experiences in the world, t was not affected by any kind of propoganda (hopefully). I don't follow any religion, so please take no offence if some of my opinions contradict your own.

So, the more I look into religion, the more it seems to me like it's just a system of mass control that was created in a time of chaos, long ago when society was much more primitive and life was much harder. I think that spiritual guidance does have meaning, if one isn't strong enough to guide himself (and that's okay, most of us aren't), but somewhere along the way religion turned into a system that freightens the believer, forces a certain way of life with threats, and I think we totally missed the point.

Religion has really turned into something extreme and dare I say even terrible. People started wars over it and are still killing each other in the name of ancient stories, which some crazy people even embrace completely literally. Those higher up the ranks are nothing but expert politicians, and money and power play a role much bigger than should be allowed... In my research I also learned the most of religion is based on people, who decided how to treat the holy writings and what to make of them. It's a really amazing read, I recommend you all to read how your religion evolved over the years on Wikipedia.

I believe that people can base a spiritual code that isn't forced on anyone and is only based on morals and philosophy, and yet more and more people today are turning to old religion.

I'm not refering to any specific religion here, this applies IMO to the three monotheistic religions of the world. I live in Israel and therefore I meet Muslims, Christians and Jews every day, some more religious than others, and there's one thing common to all of them: Too much religion and fairy-tales really messed them up. Some of them are even being told stupid lies about life, like how reading another religion's book can hurt your soul, or that internet is terrible and you shouldn't use it too much, or that if you commit suicide on strangers you can go to heaven. Isn't that terrible? Shouldn't we be getting over this by now?

I'm not religious, and I think that it's sad that we have to choose between religion and reason. Luckily for me I was able to form my own spiritual truth and I don't need any religion, but most people don't do that, they abandon reason and go on believing whatever their religious leader tells them. For shame. Also consider, there have been literally thousands of religions on earth, some vastly huge like the Roman and Egyptian religion. Some small and modest like the religion of the Incas. And today we look at them as fools who believed in total nonsense and danced to get rain. But what makes our contemporary religions more valid? Because somebody says so? I just don't buy it.

My name is Rafael, and as you might guess it was inspired by the name of archangel Raphael. That's some super-cool mythology, but when I went to look up that info on Wikipedia, it stroke me as being cool but completely fictional, to me it might have been written by Tolkien as well. It must have been so cool to live in a world in which everybody believed those tales were actually true, like 600 years ago, and walked around like archangels and demons fight behind the scenes. But nowadays it could barely hold a hollywood movie plot.

Well that's it, I know I've written a lot and I hope you lasted. I want to hear your opinion about this, because I don't see how religion and reason go hand in hand. The greatest mystery to me is religious scientists, I'll never get them.

[Phott]

Well, I've been in so many debates about this and all I can say is...

Don't go there. Really.

There is no way to really prove anything, I'm not religious myself, I'm an atheist... But I really avoid discussing too much about this because if someone is religious and really believes in whatever they believe in, they are not going to care if there is evidence or not. I have no evidence for my lack of belief either, I just think it's more logical to me than "someone" creating all this in 7 days or something similiar.

Even if some religion might be true, we can still argue how it was used, like the power the catholic church had, telling people that if they didn't do what they said they would end up in hell and such. Now, since people weren't really very educated back then, all they could do was trust the church. This subject is exactly what I'm studying right now in school actually, so I try to get as much information on the impact that religion have had.

Another point... Don't trust Wikipedia, especially not when it comes to articles on religion because everyone can edit and add to those articles.

[RefaelBA]

Well, I've been in so many debates about this and all I can say is...

Don't go there. Really.

There is no way to really prove anything, I'm not religious myself, I'm an atheist... But I really avoid discussing too much about this because if someone is religious and really believes in whatever they believe in, they are not going to care if there is evidence or not. I have no evidence for my lack of belief either, I just think it's more logical to me than "someone" creating all this in 7 days or something similiar.

Even if some religion might be true, we can still argue how it was used, like the power the catholic church had, telling people that if they didn't do what they said they would end up in hell and such. Now, since people weren't really very educated back then, all they could do was trust the church. This subject is exactly what I'm studying right now in school actually, so I try to get as much information on the impact that religion have had.

Another point... Don't trust Wikipedia, especially not when it comes to articles on religion because everyone can edit and add to those articles.

Thanks for the comment.
I actually trust Wikipedia more than often, I think it's a great system and it's very trustworthy... It's under constant observation and if someone does something stupid and changes something that he can't note a reference for, then the new content is rejected. I trust it more than I do with old books anyways. From what I used to study about the old testament, there were literally parts which were copied and pasted around the book.

[Phott]

Well when it comes to religion, there's hardly anyone who can be impartial and judge from an impartial point of view, so I guess no source is really reliable on information about some things that happened/may not have happened around religion.

[MayheM]

I am a relatively religious person. I am not however a religious zealot who tries to either sway people to believe like I do to tell someone they are wrong for believing as they choose to. I think in some cases, you are right. Some religions have turned into something they where not intended to be. Every religion at its core is intended to bring peace. But as in many things power corrupts.As some religions gained power, they began to influence people beyond their intent. I believe in God, but i am not naive enough to pretend that proven science is not true. Evolution is pretty much fact at this point yet some say it is not true because they blindly follow their faith. What people like that do not realize is that if you believe everything the bible says as far as the explanation of creation then we are all the spawn of incest. Not to mention the fact Jesus was born 2000 years after the creation of the earth and it is not 2010 so all total according to the bible the earth is only 4010 years old, giver or take. Meanwhile carbon dating shows the earth is far older. What i am getting at it the bible is meant to be a tool to help you better your life, I believe you are correct when you say religion was something created to calm a chaotic world. At least to a point. i think the stories in the old testament of the bible where created to give answers to those who asked questions. While the new testament follows the teaching of Jesus and is more of a historic recounting of what happened from the perspective of several people at that time. IE the gospels.

What it boils down to is that we are and should all be free to believe what we want to believe, but was must all remember our rights stop where another persons rights begin. I for one do not impose my beliefs on others and wish more people would follow suite. It does not matter if someone has the same beliefs as you, no one should ever be bashed for either believing or not believing in God. However when people take their religious beliefs and act out in radical ways such as Muslim Extremists, or Christian Right to life abortion clinic bombers they cross a line that makes religion look like a bad thing. The truth is Religion at its core is a good thing and the majority of those who follow religion are a better example of faith than the few zealots who take things to the extreme.

That's just how I see it though...

[RefaelBA]

MayheM, that's exactly the kind of reply that I was hoping to get - you talked about it from the "other side", and I got an insight to your opinion. Thanks, I really couldn't have asked for anything better That aside, I really admire your policy and your take on a person's freedom to believe in a different religion or system. That's great and in hebrew we have a saying that goes "Ken Irbu", meaning "May there be more of that (attiude)".

I'm studying some science, and some things work in such remarkable ways, that it's really unbelievable. It made me ponder about a divine intentionful creator more than once. But if I may ask, how does the belief in God and your recognition on Evolution go hand in hand? Isn't that a severe contradiction?

[jister]

From what I used to study about the old testament, there were literally parts which were copied and pasted around the book.

hmmm might showing/proving what you are stating?

we had threads like this before, funny thing is they mostly end up with people fighting so you have a point there that lots of shit happens in the name of religion.

on the other hand. these things, if they interest you, need careful and most of all very elaborate examining before throwing any statements around. for believers and non believers alike...
especially if you live in Israel I don't think the Hebrew Rabbi studying the Torah for almost 5000 years are to stupid to see they are fairytale or are just some copy/paste muck ups.
about wiki all I'll say is, the subject you brought to our attention is about truth not consensus as where wiki is only about consensus...

btw: evolution doesn't explain existence of life... so i don't see a problem with it going hand in hand with belief in God...?

[RefaelBA]

From what I used to study about the old testament, there were literally parts which were copied and pasted around the book.

hmmm might showing/proving what you are stating?

we had threads like this before, funny thing is they mostly end up with people fighting so you have a point there that lots of shit happens in the name of religion.

on the other hand. these things, if they interest you, need careful and most of all very elaborate examining before throwing any statements around. for believers and non believers alike...
especially if you live in Israel I don't think the Hebrew Rabbi studying the Torah for almost 5000 years are to stupid to see they are fairytale or are just some copy/paste muck ups.
about wiki all I'll say is, the subject you brought to our attention is about truth not consensus as where wiki is only about consensus...

btw: evolution doesn't explain existence of life... so i don't see a problem with it going hand in hand with belief in God...?

First of all I don't want to fight with anybody, I didn't create this thread to start a religion vs. atheism war. I just wanted to know how believers deal with the gaps between logic and religion, and why they choose to follow one instead of the other.

Now, about the forgery in the bible. Ol' King Josiah allegedly "found" a sacred text in the temple, back in ancient Israel. In short, he was planning on reforming the religious craft, and thus is was very convenient that he suddenly found a holy text that supported his cause somehwhere in the holy temple. Religious leaders say it was some phrases regarding kingship; but some scholars and researchers believe it was actually a forgery and practically the complete invention of the entire book of Deuteronomy. Yes I know it sounds groundbreaking, but in my studies it was relatively easy to prove with methods of text comparisments. Perhaps I should dig out the old notebooks and post more info about it when I'm home. If you're interested try googling for "forgery in the bible" or "bible forgery" or stuff like that. You'll probably run into some speculation as well as some serious research.

But you know what, it doesn't even matter if Josiah lied or not, because it shows you how religion is so random and built on chance, because here comes some dude with a never-before seen book and declares it's a part of religion, and people just followed suit. True or false, this is nothing but pure chance, and most aspects of religion are really built upon that. I can toss out a few examples like this one, or even far more shocking, but then again if you're very religious, you need to be very open minded to seriously consider things like these which contradict religion so vivdly.
I tried to talk about this with a religious fellow, and he blatantly ignored the facts. That's acting crazy if you ask me...

About evolution, well religion says got created man and everything else, while evolution says man came from monkeys. So you see, that's a serious contradiction right there, and that's why the church wanted to behead darwin, basically. :\ Poor fellow.

And about life, well actually today's biology sciences have a lot of great answers. How life is formed and operates, we know a lot about it today. I have this really cool female friend who studies biology, and we talk about it a lot, she's telling me some amazing things. Basically, friend, we are a complicated machine, that evolved from a simple cell to a bigger being. But today's science has also cracked consciousness she tells me, how life is formed and what makes it tick. It's an amazing subject and I can only recommend you take a few biology courses for the kick of it.

[Noodles]

Rafael, welcome to real enlightenment

I have to say I'm almost proud of you, considering you are an Israeli and therefore up to your arse in religion, to be able to stand above it.

Jister, he's right, though I don't know if "copy pasting" is the right term. Many stories in the bible were written after, even more were altered (many of jesus' actions are prophesised in the old testament, how convenient is it for monks to add them already knowing jesus' actions?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4Lbrik_eU

Try that, I haven't watched it fully myself but it should be a start. I won't be suprised if he talks at length about the HUGE discrepancies between the four canonical gospels.

MayheM: I'm not going to start an argument with you as you're a stand up bloke but I wish to disagree with the idea that the bible is for answers and a moral code.
1) The bible advocates morality as it was 2000 to 4000 years ago. Morality and what is moral is the subject of an ever changing zeitgeist, i.e it changes with time. 200 years ago slavery was not immoral. Homosexuality was immoral. Things change. Why do we use a book that doesn't change and condemns us for doing so?
2) The answers the bible provides are shown to be false time and time again. And in some cases, worse than false, they are damaging. What kind of a god would do that to us? How can we look for answers in a book that categorises bats as birds? That tells us in no uncertain terms that children who mock a man for being bald should be attacked by bears? What do you think when you read this?

In any and all religion, you will find several themes in common.

-Enslavement of women
-Repression of sexuality, often to the extent of torturing and killing those who perform natural and most certainly human acts.
-Grotesque conning of the culpable. Tell them that they'll be alright tomorrow and they'll do anything to make it true.
-Division and fostering of hate for anyone who is the slightest bit different from you. If they aren't a member of your tribe then they are a threat, because you are insecure and they could bring down the walls of mental security you have built.

About evolution, well religion says got created man and everything else, while evolution says man came from monkeys. So you see, that's a serious contradiction right there, and that's why the church wanted to behead darwin, basically. :\ Poor fellow.

I need to point out that evolution DOESN'T IN ANY WAY say that we came from monkeys. Sorry but that's what the creationists constantly blabber.
Evolution states that we share a common ancestor (or as it has been dubbed in "The Ancestor's Tale" by Richard Dawkins, 'concestor') with monkeys.

Also, the church didn't have a problem with Darwin really, it's quite suprising. What the problem was was that the Victorian sensibilities on nature were destroyed by the concept of survival of the fittest. The Victorians anthropomorphised animals greatly, in many cases for children's stories (anyone here who knows of Mr. Bunnsy from Discworld will understand), and had the concept that nature was pure and provided for them. Darwin's studies pointed out that nature was in fact, a constant fight for survival, ruthless and uncaring. That is why people objected in the first place.

I should also point out that the first edition of On the Origin of Species sold out before it went to press...it wasn't unpopular.

[RefaelBA]

Well noodles that's an interesting post, I think you might be a little harsh to some people here though. Remember I don't want this to turn into a fight, let's keep it academic as possible, and the reason I even started this thread was to get other points of view as well. I just think you came off being a little too passionate about this, but I can understand what you're saying, and yeah being in Israel means there like 40 different religions going strong around here. It's an interesting topic all on its own merits.

However I can't deny that morality changes with time. Back in the time of the Romans it was very fair to toss slaves into an arena with beasts and warriors trying to kill them to the amusement of the people (gladiators) while today it would come off as a serious violation of human rights (albeit somewhat funny if you ask me). I always enjoy giving out that example, though I think MayhaM was adressing a simpler idea, meaning the bible should help you remember you ought to be a good person and not a schmock.

Personally I don't think YouTube videos make for a strong case on any topic, as you can always find a contradicting video on YouTube, and either one could be total garbage. If anyone wants any examples of alterations and alternate sources for stories in the bible, I think I can supply you with some proper academic research on that, conducted by real historians and serious people. That might cost me some googling time though But at any rate I didn't mean to "debunk the bible" here, I just gave it as an example.

EDIT:
About your comments regarding Darwin, well what I know is that he's been accused of heresay and atheism, so I guess that means teh church didn't like him. But that's a relatively modern example. Back in the days of Galileo, when the Church had total power, the man was sentenced to improsonment and all his writings were outlawed, because he was accuesed for the very same heresay.

[MayheM]

Well first of all since it is it Friday and approaching sundown I will say shabbat shalom to you RefaelBA. I used to work in a Jewish High School so I am familiar with some of the sayings though i had not heard the one you mentioned.

As for my belief in both God and Evolution it is simple. I do not think they are mutually exclusive principles or beliefs. I have no issues believing in evolution, since I feel it is part of Gods plan. Just like I personally believe in the Big Bang, I just happen to believe God caused it. For me it is a logical way of looking at my faith.

[Blade Nd64]

Anything is possible.

That's what I remind myself when taking on subjects such as this. You must consider the reasoning and motivations behind all sides. Yes, there is what you think, but there's more to it than that, right?

Any reasoning behind any theism is flimsy. One could take option of trying to prove it wrong, but I understand even that is weak. Humans are humans, we all make mistakes. It doesn't matter if they're bishops, scientists, teachers, or politicians.

To illustrate my reasoning, let's take a look at the Bible. Some see it as a book made up by man, others see it as a sacred book from the hands of God. Based on what I know, one view is as likely as the other. I doubt anyone here was or knows someone who was involved with the creation of the Bible. So everything I can say about the origin of the Bible is based on my understanding and speculation.
The person(s) who wrote it had a purpose in writing it. It could have been made up, or maybe it really was the writings of the prophets of those times. Perhaps it has been modified out of the original meaning over time, or maybe it still retains what it held before when it was created.

Take everything into consideration. Don't completely reject things based off of your beliefs. This applies to everyone. Atheists should learn about religions and their teachings. The religious should learn about other religions and their teachings, especially if it conflicts with their teachings. The way I see it, people are free to choose what they believe. I despise those who find it necessary to bash a theism maliciously and try to force their own on a fellow being. You can't completely judge a based on understanding or actions. Theism is just an understanding. The sun emitting light is just an action. One must judge based on understanding and actions.

We are what we are. What is going on around us is our understanding. What we do about it is our actions. It's what makes us human, we can think and act.


I have a headache right now, this sucks.

[MayheM]

Blade, I totally agree. I went to catholic School as a kid. I remember taking religion class and learning not only about my faith but also the beliefs of other religions. To me, I think it made me a better person. I do no look at others beliefs and scoff at them because I have a better understanding of them. It also allows you to see the similarities between us all. I actually think it would be a good idea to teach about religion in schools. Not on a basis of "You need to believe this", but rather on a basis of "some people believe this". Understanding of other peoples beliefs will only lead to understanding of other people in general. It will also lead to a more respectful culture.

noodle, I just saw your post about the morality thing. I actually looked into that a bit. I had a friend send me some bible thumping message telling me he wants me to go to heaven and stuff like that. I live a good life and I do not think I am going to hell... Anyway, It was a verse from Corinthians and it said something about how homosexuals are bad and so on (an obvious paraphrasing on my part) I live in San Fran and know a lot of gay men and women and I am friends with many of them. The passage he sent me bothered me. Because my belief in God is that he is forgiving and excepting of people, all people, no matter what. So I looked into it and found something I thought very interesting. The original word in that passage which was translated to "homosexual" was only used in the bible twice. Once was this instance and in another it was translated into something else. It was translated into "pervert" It also stated that pervert would fit into both places as an accurate translation but homosexual would not. So someone along the line translated the greek text to fit what they wanted it to say rather than what it was meant to say.

But morality at its core has not changed, Look at the ten commandments. They are the basic laws of Jews and Christians alike. Not one of them would be considered irrelevant today. Maybe tolerated more, but morality has not changed it is the perception that has. It is far more excepted today to cheat on your wife of husband but I don't think anyone says it is not a morality issue to do so. You see what I am getting at?

[whiffen]

A theist may say you cannot disprove a gods existence.

To an Atheist however, its not about whether you can disprove something, its about being able to support something with physical evidence. We can't really disprove a universal negative anymore then you can disprove an invisible pink unicorn.

So its not about the Atheists being able to disprove a god, its about the Theists who should be showing us evidence for a god.

[MayheM]

Actually the proper term for that is Agnostic. Atheist believe there is not god and only scientific reasons for existence. While Agnostics are looking for proof to prove the existence of a god. They are more skeptical about things than they are totally against the belief. I know that is totally nitpicking but...

But what it comes down to is Faith. I have had things happen in my life that I can only explain with the though of "someone is looking out for me" I have survived things I should not have without harm. In fact I left my house one day without my cross on, stopped and turned around and went and put it on. Later in the day I was on a four wheeler without a helmet and crashed. I knocked down four or five trees and hit my head between two broken branches. Some look at that and say, wow that was lucky. I look at it with the belief someone is looking out for me. I know some of you think I am crazy for thinking that way. But it what i believe...