Religion and Reason?

[polycruncher]

Religion has been used a tool to control populations and encode knowledge via mysteries that only the elect would understand. In this world so much is counterfeit: going to church once a week to recite words and participate in rituals you don't understand is a poor substitute for a real spiritual awakening. One must separate a creed from those who promulgate it, though there are true adherents, they are few. All large institutions are corrupted either by complicity or direct involvement in the evils of the world, they cannot be looked to for guidance. The atheists and nihilists have been sold false goods, just have the Christian devout of all stripes. The universe is far more fantastic, expansive and mysterious than the Human species will probably ever understand. Many people cannot even see the truth of this five-sense reality, let alone the higher levels. Scientists can be just as illogical and psychologically rigid as the religious dogmatic. The illogicality of the large religions is obvious and is therefore an easy target.

[Makkon]

I'm having a rough day, and I'm feeling irritable right now... I hope you can all understand my initial sarcasm.
I sure appreciate certain people here giving their own definition to faith and God and projecting it onto people who believe in God (because their beliefs are exactly the way you said they are, right? You've got every other facet of their life figured out, right? Why not the way they feel and believe?), and also generalizing all of christianity as one giant mass (because, as we know, all muslims are the same too, and so are all jews, etc).
So I know how you guys feel. I also dislike people shoving their beliefs down my throat. The only times I've experienced this personally was from certain people that didn't believe in God; they were certain that they could convince me of my error by being dogmatic and forceful, and making no room for logical discussion. So I know what it's like, I just happen to be on the other end of the spectrum. I'm not saying every atheist is like that, but a few I've met have been. My common response to them: "You've never seen your own brain before, right? How do you know you actually HAVE one?"

Can I just ask that everyone show respect for other people's beliefs and don't make generalizations. Quit ignoring the purpose of this thread and seek for understanding. This was not meant to be a debate, it was meant to be a discussion. People on both sides of the "belief spectrum" ought to hold fast to this.

polycruncher: I agree completely. Nuff said. Going to church is not a substitute for personal spirituality, it's only a supplement. Going through the motions makes traditions and beliefs dead and meaningless; we're not down here to punch in some celestial timeclock and buy our way to heaven. Life is to be experienced and loved, not endured; otherwise this is all just one astronomically epic waste of time.


Kudos to the guy that quotes my whole post and befuddles it. That's been the pattern anyway.

[Corewarp]

Religion: Atheism
Reason: It's just easier and it doesn't limit my short life.

[Pwnd_Ja]

*Something 2 posts above me, so go read it so I don't clog the thread.*

From what I've seen from a lot of Atheists it is exactly as you described it: They try to ram their beliefs into your head. That, and, whilst discussing religion, it seems that Christianity is the target in itself; No one ever speaks of Buddhism or Muslims or the Jewish. This could be because Christianity is the largest religion, but it is still no excuse for generalizing all Theists to be exactly like Christians, or even focusing on any single religion at all. TIGHTEN UP THE DISCUSSION AND STOP BASHING. I WILL EAT YOU.

Now, on to my opinions... I believe that religion is a key part of the world today (Though I think the scientific communities and religious ones should stay away, far far far far away from each other.). People need hope, they need to have faith that someone is watching over their family, and that they have a purpose overall; That they aren't living simply to live. For some, it is to supply the comfort of life after death, that everything doesn't simply end when they take their last breath. I can see these things being very comforting, though I choose to live without any god or deity.

I split the religious community (as a whole) into 2 groups: The dedicated believers, and the meh "Fuck all" believers, the ones that say they are of any religion but have no idea what their religion is about. Not to bash Christianity, but as an example, someone that knows that Jesus was the son of god in their religion, but has never been to church or touched a bible in their life. These people piss me the fuck off, and it saddens me that I, and Atheist, know more about these supposed theists religions then they do. Then, there are the dedicated believers. I hold a very high respect for these people, though I don't share their beliefs. They dedicate a lot of their lives to their beliefs, studying and practicing their religion. It truly amazes me.

Religion: Atheist
Reason: I simply can't bring myself to believe anything that I cannot see, feel, or something that requires faith and not logic.

[Phott]

Religion: Atheist
Reason: I simply can't bring myself to believe anything that I cannot see, feel, or something that requires faith and not logic.

I don't want to go back to this discussion because it was taken on at least 2 pages earlier but seriously... Who is there to say there's no logic behind their belief? Think about it, some people see this world and think: "Wow, this can't just be random, someone must have created it..." Now that's logic right there.

[whiffen]

Religion: Atheist
Reason: I simply can't bring myself to believe anything that I cannot see, feel, or something that requires faith and not logic.

I don't want to go back to this discussion because it was taken on at least 2 pages earlier but seriously... Who is there to say there's no logic behind their belief? Think about it, some people see this world and think: "Wow, this can't just be random, someone must have created it..." Now that's logic right there.

While that is certainly a good question to ponder forming a conclusion based purely on ones belief with no true evidence to support that theory is not logical. I'm not against this answer but there isn't anything indicating that this world had to have been the result of an intelligent life form and not just based on a series of events. A lot of the things we see in the world, the geography, chemical makeup and structures of life can be explained much more now than it ever has been and best of all I CAN ACTUALLY SEE, TASTE, SMELL, HEAR and FEEL how most of these explanations and reasons came to be.

And nothing is truly random in the universe, for an occurrence such as ours, for all we know might not be as uncommon as we think. We still can't see quite far enough to pick out planets orbiting around other stars, mostly because the contrast between the bright star and the darker planets it to high. Not saying each star has a inhabitable planet either but I'm sure at one point in time a planet has been in the right zone, not to far or close from its sun to have liquid water, which is made of the 1st and 3rd most common elements in the universe so its not to unlikely to have.

[CorporalAris]

People often replace the term scientific proof with the term logic...

[Zabiela]

Think about it, some people see this world and think: "Wow, this can't just be random, someone must have created it..." Now that's logic right there.

If my logic points me to a flying spaghetti monster, will you still take me seriously?

If I knew nothing of geology and saw the grand canyon, I might say "Wow, this can't just be random, someone must have created it..."

Then you have creationist teachers saying the grand canyon was formed by god dragging his finger across the land.

Logic often falls apart when its surrounded by ignorance.

From what I've seen from a lot of Atheists it is exactly as you described it: They try to ram their beliefs into your head. That, and, whilst discussing religion, it seems that Christianity is the target in itself; No one ever speaks of Buddhism or Muslims or the Jewish.

Take into account where your sample set is from: if you spend time on western, secular message boards, you'll encounter mostly that type of person- young westerners (europe and america) who have a low amount of religious beliefs, so the most extreme opinions you'll encounter in that set are vociferous atheists, who are surrounded by a predominantly Christian society.

A religion thread in a secular Indian message board isn't going to be drawing comparisons to Christianity.

[Phott]

I'm not saying there has to be logic behind what they believe in, that's completely up to them, but there is a certain logic in trying to understand the world and how it was created.

Me... I honestly couldn't care less, I'm here and I will make the most of it, not waste my time trying to figure it all out.

[Zabiela]

Me... I honestly couldn't care less, I'm here and I will make the most of it, not waste my time trying to figure it all out.

Yeah, thats what the happiest people seem to live by

[Terr]

The problem with "the simple answer for X is that a god made it" is that it is actually not a simple answer. It's a a short answer, and those are very different things.

The actual "simple" answer usually involves an interlocking set of individually-simple physical laws. For example, the grand canyon is carved by water which erodes rock because there are types of rock and water evaporated into the air and rains etc. etc.

By comparison, "A wizar^h^h^h^h^h God Did It" is merely a placeholder and a cover for a huge boiling mass of unexplained issues and implications.

[source-maps]

only thing I'm going to say:
stop saying 'Religion: Atheist'
because it's not a religion

[Chopium]

Reason wins. Here's the results.

[Hollow]

I've yet to contribute to this discussion.

Growing up in a lenient non-religious family gave me the chance to make my mind up over what i felt about the world and my reactions/beliefs/opinions. I quickly decided that religion did not play any part in my life. For me, it did not make any logical sense. But I'm pretty tolerant of all religions and do not waste my time taking cheap shots at people's beliefs for kicks. But I would like to finally hop into the debate and discuss some of my thoughts.

Yeah I would say I'm Atheist, as I do not believe in a god/religion. One of the things that has always confused me, that having faith was defined as having morality and good ethics.
Me, an extremely passive person, who believes in equality/equal rights and am pretty much against any form of predujice - also someone who is Straight Edge as you know...leading what I feel is a positive step forward to living a good, healthy life - How does it make sense that I do not have any decent morals? If I do not have faith? I was not influenced ever in any decision I've made, and I even acknowledge that my lifestyle/ethical beliefs are quite in line with Christian morals...but so much logic has gone missing when I've tried to understand religion.

The concept of the Holy Trinity continues to baffle me, whether God is meant to be omniscient, omnipotent, transcendent etc. Whether he is mercyful, all-powerful, all-loving. There are just too many interpretations. A point that has always resonated with me also is how mainly in Christianity, the religion is at wars with itself over whether it needs to adapt to modern times or continue with the now, fascist, sexist, and darker undercurrent the bible portrays in the old testament. Do you go with the 'original' word of God and carry on living out it's ancient teachings, living life like 'Americas Most Hated Family'?...or do you attempt to adapt and go with the flow, updating the religion's tolerance of difference to coexist in a modern society next to Science? And ultimately going against the word of God.

For me, it's all too much of a pick 'n mix with religion. People tend to pay attention to the nice parts and base their lifestyle on that, totally ignoring all the other teachings, supposedly because it's not what they want to project any more. It's in the book. If it is meant to be correct, then follow it completely, not half-assed. That is the same as me saying 'oh yeah, I'm Straight Edge because I like the music/community, but I drink on weekends!'

I think I was put off by religion from an early age, being forced to pray and sing songs in a public school obviously had a negative effect on me. I did very well in religious studies, believe it or not, mainly because I was fascinated by the psychology behind people's motivation to have faith. How is supposed to enlighten you, as If you are this higher being with a stronger purpose in life. I didn't buy it. It confused me more.

Looking at the state of the world gave me the lasting impression though. The wars, the amount of wars, how many of them involved religion. The day to day suffering and death that occurs pretty much every waking moment around us.The corruption within in the church itself. Organized religion, natural disasters. The list goes on. I think that if I was a religious person, a traumatic event such as a loved one passing, would cause me to question my beliefs and the credibility of a deity. I couldn't handle that. To be honest I can pretty much only respect you lot who are religious and can stay strong through all of life's struggles...faith is something I will never comprehend as an atheist, but, if it completes your life, then carry on living happily your way. I'm pretty happy living mine.

Do I wish I had answers though? To those unexplainable questions? Life after death/before birth/the future/the universe etc etc. Sure, of course. But I'd much rather enjoy the ride left to make up my own mind about things and just see what happens, than constraining myself and making double sure I'm living the correct way. Science excites and awes me. I find it incredibly fascinating. Man's technological advances throughout history continue to bewilder me and as such I see it as man-made God and not vice versa.

This is probably a horribly condensed version of everything I would like to say and how I feel, but it is pretty much just a flow of thought going on as I'm typing. Hope to add more to the subject in later posts and reply to people's thoughts