Wow, I have a lot to read and a lot to respond to. Might take a little while. I apologize in advance for having to keep these very short.
Dionysos: I read over your whole post yesterday (whooo!) and had to skim over it today to respond, sorry if I skip anything! Tons of really good points. I'm running low on sleep, as well as brainpower right now, so if I say some things that don't follow through, forgive me.
I totally get what you mean, honestly there are plenty of things in this universe that aren't capable of existing (which is also arguable by some). The conventional Christian view of God (which is a view I do
not share) is simply incomprehensible. In traditional Christianity, God is viewed as being 3 distinct beings, yet not 3 but one(?). He is regarded as con-substantial, co-eternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions, dwelling outside of space and time(??). Does that sound like a being that can exist? No. A bed made of sleep seems more reasonable than an unknowable and incomprehensibly complex god.
This is what I believe: God is literally our Father, and we are literally his children. He loves us more than we have the capacity to understand. He wants the very best for us, that we could become like him (but as a good father, he will not force us, nor will he just make our lives a cake-walk. Just look at kids with parents that baby them their whole lives). He has a literal, tangible body of flesh and bone that is immortal. He is in a glorified, perfected state. He is a God of law, a God of cause and effect, and he operates upon these laws that he has established. That sounds like a being that is probable to exist, more so than other abstract or traditional conceptions.
As for coincidences, I think perhaps in our lives we all have many events that are simply that: coincidences. I've had a few freaking ones myself, and I think they make life rich and full of variety. But when I have a rapid succession of coincidences, spanning several years, that are the seeming result of a certain action (in this case, prayer, not wishing), and I find that this is an experiment that is not only
repeatable but will start and stop dependent of my actions (prayer), then it becomes increasingly improbable that these are just simple coincidences. Faith is never meant to be blind, it's something that can grow with experiences, and should never be based on assumption or tradition. So far as I have experimented on faith and prayer, my results have been positive. Of course I've had prayers unanswered (good thing too, he knows me too well), and many that took work on my side, I've still had similar results throughout. And when I haven't prayed (like a good majority of my life, I used to be agnostic) the results have been rather disappointing. That is my experience.
Thank you so much for your honesty and integrity. Like you said, I can by no means assume that you cannot live a good life without faith, that would be bigotry. It's interesting that the Bible mentions "faith without works is dead, being alone," but on a different note, I think works without faith is better to have if you're only going to have one and not both. If a man does something contrary to his personal belief, that's not a pretty thing. Whatever your course in life, keep pursuing what feels right. Honestly, in this world of confusion, that's the only intelligent thing to do. And living your life the honest Christian way, even if you don't have that faith, is tremendous, and admirable; most Christians can't even do that.
But this is something to keep in mind:
"And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." Alma 34;33-34 (Book of Mormon).
Here's my thoughts: people usually don't just up and change their minds on a whim because some big event took place in their lives. Patterns in thought and habit take a great deal of time and effort to change. Change is hard. According to that scripture that I quoted, even death doesn't change who you are. You are still the same person, with the same attitude, thoughts, personality, everything. Whatever views or beliefs you have at the time you leave this life, it's probably going to stick around for a while. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's probably really really hard. (but I don't really know, haven't been there yet).
Luckily, God has a plan for that too:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1Peter4:6 (New Testament). God doesn't set people up to fail. He doesn't stick someone in some life's circumstances to where they're likely to hold certain beliefs (whether they be right or wrong), or in a country where they never hear about God, and then at death say "Well, looks like YOU screwed this one up, BIG TIME. No salvation for you, you heathen!" He'll will, as you said, sort it all out in the end. Do your best, and do what feels right. Anything less would be a waste of existence.
Don't worry, man, it takes a lot to offend me. You seem like an awesome person anyway.
RefaelBA: Hey, no problem. I'm not offended at all by anything you've said. These are some beautiful meaty questions. Most of these I studied and taught a lot as a missionary, many people had the same questions as you. I hope I can articulate my thoughts well enough to give you a decent response.
AWonderful question! And one of my very favorite to answer!
As a missionary, the typical thing that I would say to a Christian was something similar to "we share a message that after centuries of darkness and
apostasy, God has again reached out in love and
restored his church once again on the earth today, and has done so by a living prophet. We have evidence of this found in a book called the Book of Mormon, which you can handle and see for yourself, to read the message that it contains, and to ask God himself if the book is true."
It's historically obvious that mainstream Christianity has deviated completely from the way it was established by Jesus Christ. Since the days of Adam, God had a standard procedure or how he did things. He would call a prophet (a chosen representative that God would speak through and give
authority to act in his name) and that prophet would establish a church, or an organization, by which people could learn truth necessary to return to live with God. Since God gave man his agency, or freedom to chose, often times people would reject the prophets and their teachings, and that established church would crumble and decay. This would lead to change in doctrine by self-appointed leadership, change in ordinances and organization, and all kinds of horrible stuff follows (which you are familiar with). This is called apostasy, or a falling away or rebellion from truth. In apostasy emerges the ugly side or religion. The side that man himself creates, as God is not the author.
After a period of apostasy, when the people were willing and ready to receive the fullness of the truth again, he would send another prophet. And the pattern would repeat itself again. This is what has been observed in biblical history.
When the time came that Christ, the promised Messiah, should come, it was during a period of apostasy. Christ restored his church and called twelve apostles. He gave these apostles the 'priesthood' or the authority to govern his church, and all things that are associated with it.
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians2:19-20
--quick note, a good way to think of that: If a police officer pulled you over for speeding and wrote you a ticket, you would have to pay that ticket. Why? Because that police officer had the authority to enforce the law, as it was given to him by the state. The state will support all the actions this officer performs that are within his jurisdiction. But if an ice-cream truck driver tried to write you a ticket for speeding, you don't have to pay it. Why? Because he has no authority to enforce the law, no matter how good his intentions were.--
So if you can imagine, as the Jews rejected Christ and crucified him, what would happen to his apostles? They were persecuted and killed, along with those who were Christ's followers.
So the pattern repeats again.
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11-12
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:20-31 (Paul speaking to leaders of the church).
Well, I won't go on with too many, but here's a list if you want to see all the references:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?typ ... ecked&bt=1and that's not a complete list.
Basically, what happened to Christ's church was an apostasy; a corruption of the government within, and rampant persecution from without. This was prophesied to happen from the very beginning.
Christ's own words, speaking to his apostles:
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matthew24:9-12
So the church crumbled, and only fragments of believers remained.
Around the 4th century, the Roman empire, which initially persecuted the Christians, later adopted Christianity, when Emperor Constantine's wife was converted to what remained of Christiandom, and so he followed. What happened from there was a very interesting transformation. As there was no leadership of the church for decades, there was no unity of belief among Christians. To solve this, Constantine thought, a council was held to establish a unity in doctrine. What resulted was a
compromise, popular philosophers and unlearned men
voting on what the true nature of God was, and how his church was to function.
And the rest is a montage of bloody history from there.
To answer your question, I don't follow the conventional system of Christianity. I believe that God himself has restored his church on the earth again through a modern prophet named was Joseph Smith (that's a ton of information to go over, so here's a link to read if you like:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1 ).
I hope that sort of answers your question
A II I love this one too.
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God
as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Articles of Faith:8
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1The Bible is not perfect. Nor is any scripture. It came in this manner:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 1Peter1:20-21
And as scripture is transcribed repeatedly, people are human, and things are changed over thousands of years. The Bible was translated a few hundred times, and you can only imagine what information can be lost that way. But that's not all, scriptural text was deliberately changed by many corrupt men during many periods of apostasy. So you can imagine it's going to have some inconsistencies. That's why, in my church, we have more scripture to act as a second witness to clarify the doctrines of the Bible, such as the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Moreover there are Modern Prophets and Apostles who receive current revelation, and personal prayer for clarification.
BVery good question. I really don't think I know myself well enough to tell you who I would be or what I would do. There really is no way of telling. I would probably be affected very much by my surroundings. But then again, you were raised a certain religion, and you have detached from it. People are not at the total mercy of their circumstances. But there are billions of people on the earth who are not Christian, and billions more who have lived and died without being Christian.
I hope this doesn't deviate from what you wanted to know, but: I asked a Christian man once (I won't mention his religious affiliation) "what happens if someone lives and dies without ever having a chance to hear about Christ?" His answer: "He's goin ta HELL." Seem fair? Of course not.
God knows and loves each and every one of his children. He knows them all by name. He knows their thoughts, intentions, words, deeds, feelings, and circumstances. Would a perfectly just and merciful God condemn his child who he loves so dearly to an endless misery because he was born in a country where there was no concept of God, and never had the chance to accept Christ? Obviously no.
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1Peter4:6
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John5:25
God is going to sort it all out in the end. Not that that excuses any of us from our responsibility to search for the truth, but so long as we do our very best, everything is going to be sorted out in the end. God takes all things into account: circumstances, education, disability, culture, social pressure, etc.
CGood question, one that I haven't pondered on much. I think that there are plenty of ways to be happy, but there are some that do not last, some that do well, and some that do better than others. I think I can agree that religion is a human trait, I feel that sort of disposition is a trait that was God-given. The history isn't anything I have to explain to myself. I know that a search for meaning and happiness is a desire shared by every human being, and there are many parts of the world that have systems that work fantastically. But what I have found I feel works the very best. And I have tried many others. To this day I have not found anything that works better; if and when I do, I will accept whatever it is. I don't know how to answer that anymore than I have.
I hope that all answered your questions! I............got a little long winded, and probably shared more information than you really needed to know. But now I need to take a break from typing.
Maybe as a future note, I'd like to avoid long posts.
) made the very good point that a belief system is by its very nature very good at being passed onto others. And also that children are, naturally, very able to lap up whatever their parents/teachers tell them.
