Religion and Reason?

[Terr]

I think we need to be careful about the difference between faith and Faith where one has a capital-F.

The regular "faith" is just part of the common human condition. I have "faith" that when I press down on the brake my car will stop. I haven't actually examined the entire chain of machinery to verify it, and I'm unlikely to do so as long as my faith is not challenged. (Either by a scary brake failure or by a warning from a mechanic.) If people tried to reason their way through their daily lives they'd be insane.

By comparison, capital-F Faith usually has religious tones, and refers to faith which actively resists verification by reason. My "faith" in my brake-pedals can be supported or rejected by reason. But "Faith" in the supernatural resists it because "God works in mysterious ways" etc.

[Simpletool]

I have to agree with Makkon about the video. It is along the lines of walking into a pitch black room where in you remain completely quiet. A second person then walks in and tries to say because they can not see or hear you there can not possibly be anyone in the room. However the fact remains you are in the room...

And yet a person could walk into an empty pitch black room and claim that within that room exists another person. They would be false. So what exactly is the point of your analogy?

[Makkon]

I think this thread has ceased to be a search for understanding and has turned into a debate of opinions. I'm not particularly interested in participating anymore; it doesn't appear to really matter what I or anyone on either side has to say; entire meaningful posts are ignored or debunked by someone who wants to make a point. At this point we're repeating ourselves. There is nothing new that I can say because the arguments that are being brought up are the same ones that were answered PAGES ago.
Please inform me when this thread returns to it's original purpose.

[Terr]

On that note, everyone should go read The Screwtape Letters. Even if you've read it before. Go now.

[Major Banter]

Please inform me when this thread returns to it's original purpose.

Not possible, the argument is exhausted.

Either needs a fresh one or simply left alone to be valuable reading rather than increasingly pointless.

[MayheM]

The sad thing is it was not meant to be an argument at all...

[VENATOR]

We can bump old topics if they're in Serious Discussion, right? Right?

Anyway, I have a personal disdain for religion, not only because of the dogma some of them carry, but because I am forced, as an atheist, to worship God at my school.
Every week I have to sit in church, sign a hymn, listen to some more-often-than-not fabricated story that concludes with more-or-less the statement 'Believe in God'. Every other week I have not only that, but a whole half hour session of hymn practice. Some weeks I have to come on SUNDAY-frickin'-EVENING (or morning, you can choose, but f**k that, I say) and listen to hymns, bible readings, etc. and then listen to priest talk about how f**king awesome it is to be a Christian FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR. And what's even worse, he sometimes tries to be 'cool', i.e. he recites anecdotes which he thinks, for some reason, appeal to teenagers, simply because he mentions mobile phones. Utterly cringeworthy people, though I know well enough not to hold that stereotype for all Christians.
Sometimes I get bollocksed for not singing the hymns by teachers; 'They're just songs, singing is good for you!' and I even get hassled for abstaining for singing hymns from other students (older than me, of course, and bigger) who don't even listen to what they sing and I feel that I am building a reputation as an unenthusiastic depressive in the eyes of some people, just because I don't feel comfortable singing out Christian propaganda. They're not just songs, they are items of propaganda and have been ever since they were conceived. And I must say, the tunes are absolutely terrible. I hate to think of all the lovely, tuneful songs that we could be singing, but we have to sing these ugly, old-fashioned tunes, which makes we wonder if they think God has poor taste in music.
And, oh no, my school is clever. They realise that most of us are atheist, and they know that people possess the logic that they will question why on earth we carry out Christian practices. It's 'spiritual'. Utter bullshit. It is not spiritual. 'And now a moment of silence for your thoughts and prayers'. Does that make it spiritual? I sort of feel the spirituality is overshadowed by the hymns, the readings and all the rest of it. I can't think spiritually when somebody is trying to dictate what my spiritual views should be.

So, yeah, just venting some anger on how our school forces us to do Christian stuff, then makes up dumb excuses when we protest. I don't honestly know how many of my peers share my views, but they enjoy the singing I think. My school is an English private school (quite expensive, don't mean to gloat, just telling you the facts), so that might mean something.

[Phott]

Okay, I've got nothing against religion really unless someone tries to force it down people's throats (which evidently happens a lot, not just with a certain religion). I feel for you VENATOR and I would be utterly pissed if I were in your position.

[Major Banter]

I like the way the Catholic church is pulling out the old "discrimination" stuff.

Right.

Homosexuals, you hypocritical cretins.

[MayheM]

Did anyone read what this thread was meant to be? This thread was not meant for people to come on and bash the beliefs of others but rather to give those who do believe in God and or have faith in some religion to explain why they think the way they do. I could not care less if people think I am crazy for believing in God, I could care less if you have disdain for religion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion in this world and those who are bashing the faithful need to step back a bit because getting a bit out of hand. You can voice your opinion but at least have respect for the opinions of others.

Venator, Sometimes in life you have to do what you don't like. It is just the way life is so get used to it. In all honesty though the propaganda you speak of, what is so wrong with the core of the message? Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the message of Christianity is a good one. Sure it gets skewed by some and hatred stems from it. Like Banters point about homosexuality. I am Catholic, but I do not feel it is my place to judge people and frankly ones personal affairs are none of my business. In other words I take from what i hear and I apply it to my own beliefs in turn making me a better person. At it's core the Christian belief structure is meant to bring peace and good will too all. How can you have disdain for that message? Sure it sucks you have to do something you do not want to do. But, since you have to you might as well take something positive away from it. To go in blindly hating or as you said disdain, it will only make it more unbearable. I think your problem is mainly that you are forced into religion. That is what is wrong with the issue, not the message, not what the singing. If said message was not being forced upon you, you would be far more open to it or at least not be so utterly appalled by it.

Honestly though, I read a lot of these things and it upsets me. Not because my beliefs differ from many of you, but rather because there is such disrespect shown by many of you towards those of us who do believe in God. There is such a push for tolerance in the world. Racial tolerance, Sexual tolerance, etc... But that message is lost as soon as you get to religion. For some it may not be intentional, others I am sure it is blatantly so, but people need to respect the beliefs of others whether it be one who believes in God, or on who does not.

[VENATOR]

Did anyone read what this thread was meant to be? This thread was not meant for people to come on and bash the beliefs of others but rather to give those who do believe in God and or have faith in some religion to explain why they think the way they do. I could not care less if people think I am crazy for believing in God, I could care less if you have disdain for religion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion in this world and those who are bashing the faithful need to step back a bit because getting a bit out of hand. You can voice your opinion but at least have respect for the opinions of others.

Venator, Sometimes in life you have to do what you don't like. It is just the way life is so get used to it. In all honesty though the propaganda you speak of, what is so wrong with the core of the message? Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the message of Christianity is a good one. Sure it gets skewed by some and hatred stems from it. Like Banters point about homosexuality. I am Catholic, but I do not feel it is my place to judge people and frankly ones personal affairs are none of my business. In other words I take from what i hear and I apply it to my own beliefs in turn making me a better person. At it's core the Christian belief structure is meant to bring peace and good will too all. How can you have disdain for that message? Sure it sucks you have to do something you do not want to do. But, since you have to you might as well take something positive away from it. To go in blindly hating or as you said disdain, it will only make it more unbearable. I think your problem is mainly that you are forced into religion. That is what is wrong with the issue, not the message, not what the singing. If said message was not being forced upon you, you would be far more open to it or at least not be so utterly appalled by it.

Honestly though, I read a lot of these things and it upsets me. Not because my beliefs differ from many of you, but rather because there is such disrespect shown by many of you towards those of us who do believe in God. There is such a push for tolerance in the world. Racial tolerance, Sexual tolerance, etc... But that message is lost as soon as you get to religion. For some it may not be intentional, others I am sure it is blatantly so, but people need to respect the beliefs of others whether it be one who believes in God, or on who does not.

It is like anything unpleasant, when it is forced upon, you begin to grow contempt for it; I have tried to enjoy it to some extent, I have tried singing the hymns, I have tried listening to what the vicars and reverends say, and I do appreciate what work they do for charity, but I full-stop do not like religion, and Christianity is no exception. Islam was the cause that resulted in jihads across Africa and the Middle East, and destroyed a lot of ancient religion and culture, including the Ancient Egyptians. Plus it is the cause of sharia law and as far as I can see, the prayers to Kaba every morning and those in the evening, and all the pilgrimages Muslims go on are wasted time, really, because even if Allah did exist, he isn't answering any prayers as far as I can see, and surely global prosperity and world peace would be top of the list? Christianity is responsible for the First, Second and Third Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the English Civil War to some extent, for crying out loud. Same with the prayers. Judaism was the cause of that outrageous incursion on Palestine soil and I strain to think how many people they slaughtered in whatever religious wars they waged, and although I cannot name one, I'm pretty damn sure that with any religion, there are holy wars.
That may all be in the past, but I only see religion in society as a tool for converting and dominating people's minds. Did the innocent farmers deserve the suffering they endured during the Vietnam War? What about the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and disabled people who were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps? God either can't control humanity, he has us as some kind of weird experiment and leaves us to do our own thing, he's dead or he doesn't know what's going on. Either one dispels the 'Eternal, Benevolent, Omnipotent, Omniscient' rule and I just can't grasp why any deity, God, Allah or anyone, would allow at any point for innocent human beings and even animals to suffer as they do in some situations. That is why I don't believe in god. Plus, I've never even seen or heard he/she/it, and what exists that we can't see or hear? Oh, sure, photons, quarks (uh, not sure on this one, lol), electromagnetic waves, plus black holes (we can see them sometimes), stars, and, oh yeah, we can see back in time to the end of the Universe (Ultra Deep Space Field), so is God bigger than THAT? Pretty huge, considering he'd need A LOT of energy to function at that size, seeing as energy is literally everything, he wouldn't be able to speak to people, appear to them, etc. And if he's smaller, well, I really can't think of what anything can do when it's THAT small. We as humans have the capabilities to see a lot, with our technology and our natural curious nature, so is God invisible or something?

[Dionysos]

Regarding your last point venator, logic doesn't apply to god, but Faith. (see Terr's post above) An omnipotent being isn't logically possible.

@Mayhem, he specifically said "I know well enough not to hold that stereotype for all Christians." I can see why one would argue that venting his anger would be off-topic, but if you claim respect for other peoples opinions you cannot seriously consent to forced religious practices and ceremonies. By saying "you don't always like everything you do in life" you basically justify all kinds of shit. I know that isn't your intention, but it's hypocritical to your argument of tolerance. Tolerance means tolerating something (to be). No one should have to tolerate a practice or ideological ceremony of any kind that he/she does not agree to.

It has been shown (and easily demonstrated) how the message of Christianity can be pretty much everything, as with every religion. You pick and choose and interpret from really big books; of course there's something for everyone. I don't say you shouldn't appreciate the good, but saying the message is either this or that is impossible to prove because it can always be disproved by some quote that is equally legit.

I think the push for tolerance is what is upsetting many religious people, because they suddenly have to conform to tolerance as well. Schools are the perfect example. Tolerance dictates that you shouldn't force feed any religion or ideology. It means letting other people think, belief and do what they want as long as it doesn't encroach those exact rights of yours. You might not like it, but you have to tolerate other peoples views, and not push yours on others by mandatory sermons. Teaching about religion is not the same as a sermon.

Edit: This topic was about how Faith (Religion) can go hand in hand with reason, as Rafael stated in the first post.

[Phott]

Well to keep it to the topic then, here's a serious question to people who more than believe in god.

So, I've heard a lot of bad things that god has done, I mean you're basically born with sin and he have killed of many people for several different reasons. My question is, why do you "worship" such a "god"? I can understand that there may be some kind of belief that he may have created all of this, but is he really that good if you look at the history?

[CorporalAris]

I kinda wanna jump in here, but since there isn't really a jumping off point, I figured I'd just tell you guys my personal feelings on religion.

In order to do this, I need to share a bit of a background on my personal and family life. I am the middle child in my direct family. I have an older brother and sister, and a younger brother and sister. My parents were heavily Roman Catholic, but divorced in 1997, when I was six. I lived with my mom until 1999, when she remarried and moved to a more rural area. We lived there for two years, and moved again, to a farm three and a half hours away. That didn't go over well, though, since my dad was allowed visitation rights, and my mother simply stopped bringing us to the visits. My dad sued and won custody.

My mother attempted to counter-sue several times, and has lost each time. In eighth grade, I was in my dad's office, and opened one of his drawers and found his legal documents. My mother was suing for custody based on the "fact" that my father had abused us, his kids, was in a "illegal sex ring," and was dying of AID's, contracted from one of my male neighbors back in my original hometown. None of which is true. My dad never beat or sexually abused any of us, and is still very much alive, and remarried. He is now Lutheran.

Now, I am homosexual, so that obviously affects a lot of my thoughts on Religion. (My mother doesn't know, because if she did, she would attempted to re-sue for custody of my younger siblings.) But I have the chance to see this from the outside in, since it is very rare that someone guess's that I am gay. In other words, I am not feminine at all. Most, if not all, hate and discrimination that I have seen or experienced, personally or otherwise, has been FROM so-called religious people. Whereas people who are atheist, agnostic, or unsure, tend to be the most accepting.

So this immediately puts a huge downer on religion for me. BUT, it is not the deciding factor in my overall opinion of religion. It just affects my ideas behind it. Since I have listed my reasons for disliking religion, I figure I should put some positive memories in there as well.

I was heavily involved with my dad's Lutheran/Non-denominational church for a long time. I volunteered several times a year, and spent four spring breaks in different states, helping homeless people. I made speeches, and was simply very in with this church. So, I do not have anything AGAINST religion, just opinions that I tend to keep to myself.

I think that this world NEED'S religion. Without it, I think there would be straight up anarchy. There are people who I think, if they were not religious, would just be crazy people. Religion gives them a basic set of moral guidelines, holds them accountable for specific things, and absolves them of other faults. However, religion is more often than not degraded to a level of attacks against a specific type of people. Even though the religions are created on the ideas of anti-hate, they often fall to a level of just that.

Specifically Christianity, since I know the most about it. The message behind Jesus is essentially anti-hate, anti-discrimination. Yet, in this day and age, much of the discrimination is perpetrated by those very same people.

Personally, I am agnostic. I think that this is some god somewhere, but no one has it right. I have a hard time believing that this is it. Nothing after this. But I also don't like the idea of life simply being a test. That really bothers me.

Anyway, I feel as though I have simply been ranting, so I'll cut it off here.

Oh, and the only reason I stopped being Lutheran was NOT the fact that when my church got new leadership, they started putting out anti-gay ideas, but when I found out that people that didn't believe in Christianity, regardless of whether or not they were good, or did good things, if they didn't believe in Jesus, they were going to hell. Fuck that.

I'll just be the best person I can be. If I go to hell for that, I don't wanna be religious anyway.

[magoc]

When I was young my parents sent me to this church. And looking back on it I'm glad that if they had to force me to go a church they chose to send me to this relatively 'tolerant' church. We even had a openly gay minister and nobody made a fuss about it, not even the old people. I still think they shouldn't have forced me to go (although at the age of 12 they let me decide for myself) but when I separate the religious part from the rest of the message I think it has helped shaping me to what I am now. That church has thought me a lot more of being open to other people than my school ever did. Too bad they linked it to a deity.