Serious theory (SDK)

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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby marks on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:58 am

Our engine at work needs to compile irradiance volume data, but after that you can edit lights in realtime. And we have some pretty groundbreaking lighting tech.
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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby YokaI on Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:03 am

Gary wrote:Both the Frostbite 2 engine and UE3 must compile their maps/content. Some of the most advanced engines still need to compile stuff. Though, the UnrealEditor does show an approximation of the lighting before build.


I think it's more important to note the quality of the compile options in UE3, where you can really specify how exactly you want data to be compressed and various other very very useful tools that are all accessable inside the editor. It also depends if you're using precomputed light maps or if you're using vertex lighting for certain meshes.

I haven't been here in a little while, I've been working on my chops on UDK / 3ds Max in hopes to get a job sometime in the next year or two. However, I will note that the bigger problem with Valve's source engine versus tools like UDK is merely the methods at which they compile. The days of bsp should be dead at this point, the fact that it's been in use by valve for so long is mind boggling. Most importantly, besides technology issues, the source SDK really fails at giving everybody a modern up-to-date build monthly with all of the tools (or most of the tools) that are available by those who work at valve.

My experience with UDK one year ago started a bit like candy land, but in time I learned it has flaws too. But it's flaws are outweighed by the sheer amount of tools that come with UDK and the intuitive nature of importing and even exporting content from the editor. Sure, brush controls are a bit redundant in UDK, but who even needs brushes these days anyway? It's kind of like living in the late 90s early 2000s. If you're still relying on brushes to create an environment, you're really behind on the times and you're also missing out on a lot of really effective ways to make a pretty scene. The source SDK tools could use more streamlined tools for importing / exporting content that doesn't require 3rd party GUI tools to use efficiently on the artists side. Even more important, most things should be editable outside of a game engine and the editing tool itself should be able to run the game engine in real time while working on a project, which the BSP format isn't able to do efficiently. If valve could just "choose" to get rid of needing to compile lighting, they would, but it makes sense why they can't. In udk you have to compile lights too, if you're using lightmaps and are considering having optimized lighting setups. BSP files need to recompile every time, even if the data of certain areas hasn't changed.

The real problem here is that valve doesn't know whether it wants to compete in middle-ware or not. It's not about mapping or modding anymore these days, it's about the independent scene. If there's one thing UDK has proved with games like sanctum and dungeon defenders, it's that the independent scene can be profitable to market toward and having a framework for other studios to make games off of is better than having a game where people can hack new gametypes on top of it. Even more important, it's way more profitable.

If Valve wants to do middleware, however, updates will NEED to be frequent. The biggest reason why Source engine as a middleware tool was less effective as engines like Unreal 3 was merely because the support for third party developers wasn't there and there was hardly any good documentation. Sometimes, as a coder, it's harder to reverse engineer some other persons code than it is to just make your own version of the exact same thing, something the NS2 developers seemed to catch on to relatively quickly after liscensing the Source Engine. The same could be said for UDK, but the amount of support and tools provided by Epic is much larger and more versatile than that of the source engine.

From actions thus far, including the lack of updates to source sdk and how newer versions of source have merely become "authoring tools", I feel as though valve is shifting away from trying to become middle-ware and are instead focusing on creating tools for fans to create content for their already pre-existing games which they can rightfully charge money for. To be honest, that's a brilliant idea and even MMO's could apply that to create a forever evolving and self updating game. So the real question is whether or not Valve will have a new SDK, not what they'll do with it.
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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby cra0kalo on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:41 pm

I'm waiting for the Source Film Maker .... It's sad really I previously was talking to a team who licenced the source engine from Valve and they got nothing special except for old tools that didn't even work. Basically I'm getting a little bit scared that those are the only tools Valve has and loosing hope that they will come out and surprise us in the future with new in-house tools they have been hiding. Will they ever release the new DMX format tools we have yet to wait and see.
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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby nub on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:39 am

I think Valve hasn't considered competing in middle-ware because of Steam. They make so much money from Steam already, so it's not really their primary concern.

I kind of wish they'd consider it if they ever decide to make a new engine...
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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby Gary on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:12 am

Haha. New engine!? They won't even make new tools!
Have a question related to modding or something I posted? Something that needs staff attention? I haven't been active lately, but feel free to PM me or message me on Steam(link below)

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Re: Serious theory (SDK)

Postby cra0kalo on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:03 pm

Gary wrote:Haha. New engine!? They won't even make new tools!


(x1) agree
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