How would you react?

[Chrille]

Seriously, how the hell are we supposed to progress as a species if we cling to this shit.

Progress towards what?

And on-topic, then I must admit that I can't take these people seriously. I mean, I respect an individuals right to do whatever they want with their body and I'm not gonna stop them from doing anything, but in my eyes, it's just not the real thing.

[MayheM]

I would admire his courage, not a lot of people have the guts nowadays to strive to be themselves, too many people pretending to be what they are not.

I was talking to my dad about it when he picked me up at the airport yesterday. The words actually came out of my mouth..."it takes balls" then I started laughing because of the situation and my ironic choice of words.

That aside I agree most people do not have the courage to do what she is doing.

Also, I had not thought about it but it would be odd for me if a friend went threw this. We all have close friends and in most cases guys have close guy friends and girls have close girl friends. So when someone goes threw this that dynamic changes in some ways. They are still the same person, but things would be different in some ways.

Over the past year or so I have changed my outlook on a lot of things. Mainly it has been my reaction to situations that has changed. I know stay true to the idea, it is not place to judge others. I take people for who they are not what they are. That is not to say it would. Ot be difficult for me or that I would instantly be comfortable with the situation if a friend of mine went threw this, but I would try my hardest to be supportive.

I am glad I posted this though. I feel it is serious topics like this that need to be talked about honestly. The idea of progressing as a spicies is a bit much, but I think in order to live a good life you must respect others even if you do not agree with them. Without an open diologue we do not have a chance to learn other ideas and grow to understand different ideas.

[Ale]

I would admire his courage, not a lot of people have the guts nowadays to strive to be themselves, too many people pretending to be what they are not.

heh, while I agree with you, I'm going to make fun of your wording

In this case, it's like they have the courage to be what they're not.

Depends on how you interpret it, but i lol'd anyway

[Dionysos]

Right, what does progress usually mean... better? Improvement? Dare I say, more enlightenment and reason? Adaption at the very least. Change is a requirement of staying alive.

Even if the feeling of having been born into the wrong sex wasn't biological and thus just a personal "quirk" (albeit a rather big one) it's still a choice people can and should be allowed to make without it degrading them. And be honest, not taking someone seriously is a form of degrading them. Opposing or being repelled or distraught in any way only by the fact that someone might change his/her gender is irational and grounded in culture and tradition. That in itself is understandable; we can hardly escape our environment or retroactively change the cultural circumstances of our mental development. What we can do is combat ingrained irational behaviour/reflexes with reason, something we do everyday in our culture of not clubbing each other over the head (literally).

Our sex, sexual preference and loads of other elementary things about us and our (animalistic?) behaviour is governed by our body, by our biology, governed by the laws of physics. If someone (God if you like) had thrown a figurative biological switch the other way around during your development in the womb, you would be of the opposite sex, including all the inclinations that entails. Would you deny it'd still be "you"? Does sex define your "soul"? Your very essence? Or is it more akin to your eye color or shade of hair, which are also governed by biological switches? Would you not take someone seriously because science permits them to throw a switch the way they wish or feel would make their lifes fuller, for instance limit their genetic propensity to gain weight (a personality altering condition I might add, like gender)? No.

In a society or culture governed by reason, personal freedom and respect of other's freedom, this should be a given. One day science and culture might reach a point where changing your gender back and forth is possible and regarded as normal (I'm in no way saying that in a normative way). If you had grown up in that society, do you think you'd would even give such a thing a second thought?

No.

And yes, I think this is a worthwhile discussion, so thanks for that.

[Chrille]

Right, what does progress usually mean... better? Improvement? Dare I say, more enlightenment and reason? Adaption at the very least. Change is a requirement of staying alive.

I was also curious as to what you regarded as progress, since that is a highly subjective term. Saying that things should get better is a really vague way of wording it.

Even if the feeling of having been born into the wrong sex wasn't biological and thus just a personal "quirk" (albeit a rather big one) it's still a choice people can and should be allowed to make without it degrading them. And be honest, not taking someone seriously is a form of degrading them. Opposing or being repelled or distraught in any way only by the fact that someone might change his/her gender is irational and grounded in culture and tradition. That in itself is understandable; we can hardly escape our environment or retroactively change the cultural circumstances of our mental development. What we can do is combat ingrained irational behaviour/reflexes with reason, something we do everyday in our culture of not clubbing each other over the head (literally).

Our sex, sexual preference and loads of other elementary things about us and our (animalistic?) behaviour is governed by our body, by our biology, governed by the laws of physics. If someone (God if you like) had thrown a figurative biological switch the other way around during your development in the womb, you would be of the opposite sex, including all the inclinations that entails. Would you deny it'd still be "you"? Does sex define your "soul"? Your very essence? Or is it more akin to your eye color or shade of hair, which are also governed by biological switches? Would you not take someone seriously because science permits them to throw a switch the way they wish or feel would make their lifes fuller, for instance limit their genetic propensity to gain weight (a personality altering condition I might add, like gender)? No.

In a society or culture governed by reason, personal freedom and respect of other's freedom, this should be a given. One day science and culture might reach a point where changing your gender back and forth is possible and regarded as normal (I'm in no way saying that in a normative way). If you had grown up in that society, do you think you'd would even give such a thing a second thought?

No.

And yes, I think this is a worthwhile discussion, so thanks for that.

Why is it irrational? I wouldn't say that changing gender is rational, but anyway, it's not so much that they're changing gender, it's the fact that they aren't really changing gender that makes me unable to take it serious. It's like "wannabes".
And, as opposed to the claim made by whoever earlier in this thread that you also mentioned just now, that your body doesn't define your gender, it does. Your body defines your gender, and your gender defines your personality. Bodies of men and women have different quantities of hormones and whatever going through their systems, actively influencing what they think and how.
I don't think, in most cases, that it is biological to want to change sex, but rather a product of "nurture". And I don't believe in God, no.

btw, i also think that this is worthwhile discussion, although it is late and ima watch blade II now so apologies that my response is a little rushed

[Dionysos]

Right, what does progress usually mean... better? Improvement? Dare I say, more enlightenment and reason? Adaption at the very least. Change is a requirement of staying alive.

I was also curious as to what you regarded as progress, since that is a highly subjective term. Saying that things should get better is a really vague way of wording it.

As long as we're talking in a rational (I'll try not to use that word too often) fashion, I don't think "better" is vague. Good and bad are pretty definable in the sense of how we thrive.

bla

Why is it irrational? I wouldn't say that changing gender is rational, but anyway, it's not so much that they're changing gender, it's the fact that they aren't really changing gender that makes me unable to take it serious. It's like "wannabes".

I meant that being "unnerved" (etc) one way or the other about someone "changing their gender" in itself was irational. You're welcome to think the reason for the decision is irational, however that's not what I meant. I'm not sure at this point what you think I meant by irational.

If for you it's not about the gender change in itself, then I'm all with you The question however remains why you think it's "wannabe" like, since it's basically the closest you can get to a real gender change. Sure, to a certain degree it's as yet "only" trying, but what's wrong with trying? Are all amateurs wannabes?

Also, do you know the results of some of the "gender changes"? Especially if done at a young age, hormone treatment can really basically change your gender including looks if it's done early enough.

And, as opposed to the claim made by whoever earlier in this thread that you also mentioned just now, that your body doesn't define your gender, it does. Your body defines your gender, and your gender defines your personality. Bodies of men and women have different quantities of hormones and whatever going through their systems, actively influencing what they think and how.
I don't think, in most cases, that it is biological to want to change sex, but rather a product of "nurture". And I don't believe in God, no.

btw, i also think that this is worthwhile discussion, although it is late and ima watch blade II now so apologies that my response is a little rushed

I didn't say the body doesn't define your gender (at least I'm pretty sure I didn't?), I basically said exactly the opposite; your body defines your gender, it's an attribute, triggered/set by a switch. But lot's of things do, things people take a decision to change all the time. Your lifestyle, your environment and all the things those entail influence "what you're thinking" and thus (by experience) how. Somehow though, changing your lifestyle or your environment isn't regarded as strange at all. That's what I meant by people's view on gender change in itself being influenced by culture or tradition (thus not necessarily reason and independent thought (to put it bluntly)).

The question of what causes people to want to change their (biological) gender is really beside the point. I can't however see how saying that the will or need to change gender is down to "nurture" (p.c. for brainwashing?) is any different from the age old (and quite frankly by this point tired) argument that being gay is down to "nurture" as well.

Enjoy

[MayheM]

The one thing I will add as far ar the "at some point this may be considered normal"...

If normal is defined as "conforming to the standard or the common type", this should never be considered "normal". I do not mean it should looked at in a bad light, but this is not the common practice of most people hence it should not be considered the norm. Like I said before, i will not judge people who are different (in this way) but I do not think I can even consider it "normal".

[zombie@computer]

That aside I agree most people do not have the courage to do what she is doing.

These type of remarks make me feel itchy. Perhaps i do not define 'courage' the same as other people, perhaps what im trying to say does not make sense at all, but let me try to phrase it simply:

it takes courage to jump out of an airplane.
it does not take courage to jump out of an airplane when you are pushed.

I dont think i can explain it any other way. Simply said, this person has the courage to do what shklee is doing because shklee is being pushed. Pushed by feelings, others, etc. Its not courage. Its their only way out. Other people in the same situation would either react the same, or push back to whatever is pushing them to do whatever it is they are pushed to do.

'it takes courage most people do not have' kind of implies i have to be in awe and respect these people above others. I, for one, do NOT respect these people above others. They get the same respect as anyone else from me. Whether they work at mcDonalds or become transsexual. It's just another life choice made because it was the best available option.


I would like to raise one point though: I do not think its normal people want to cross genders. It is, in all its worth, unnatural. I do think some woman want to live LIKE men, and vice-versa. I dont think its the genitals in the way, its the predefined rules society has on a gender. Changing that is much, much more natural and probably easier as well.

[Chopium]

It's courage because what they feel the need to do would/could alienate them socially and throw their life into uncertainty. Since courage is the ability to confront fear or uncertainty, these people show courage in doing what they feel is right, despite the easier and more socially optimal choice of inaction. Nothing pushes them besides their own moral courage, it's an internal struggle to fix something nobody else thinks is wrong.

You do not have to respect or be in awe of transsexuals, but they had courage.

If you really felt like you should be a different sex (you the way you are is wrong), would you have the courage to do something about it, or would you live the rest of your life in quiet desperation?

[Dr. Delta]

I'd be like, m'kay.

[Armageddon]

Just wondering, but how do you know she didn't just want a name change?

[Dr. Delta]

Just wondering, but how do you know she didn't just want a name change?

valid yet naive question.

[Chrille]

talk

As long as we're talking in a rational (I'll try not to use that word too often) fashion, I don't think "better" is vague. Good and bad are pretty definable in the sense of how we thrive.

talk

I meant that being "unnerved" (etc) one way or the other about someone "changing their gender" in itself was irational. You're welcome to think the reason for the decision is irational, however that's not what I meant. I'm not sure at this point what you think I meant by irational.

If for you it's not about the gender change in itself, then I'm all with you The question however remains why you think it's "wannabe" like, since it's basically the closest you can get to a real gender change. Sure, to a certain degree it's as yet "only" trying, but what's wrong with trying? Are all amateurs wannabes?

Also, do you know the results of some of the "gender changes"? Especially if done at a young age, hormone treatment can really basically change your gender including looks if it's done early enough.

talk

I didn't say the body doesn't define your gender (at least I'm pretty sure I didn't?), I basically said exactly the opposite; your body defines your gender, it's an attribute, triggered/set by a switch. But lot's of things do, things people take a decision to change all the time. Your lifestyle, your environment and all the things those entail influence "what you're thinking" and thus (by experience) how. Somehow though, changing your lifestyle or your environment isn't regarded as strange at all. That's what I meant by people's view on gender change in itself being influenced by culture or tradition (thus not necessarily reason and independent thought (to put it bluntly)).

The question of what causes people to want to change their (biological) gender is really beside the point. I can't however see how saying that the will or need to change gender is down to "nurture" (p.c. for brainwashing?) is any different from the age old (and quite frankly by this point tired) argument that being gay is down to "nurture" as well.

Enjoy

minor bamp

Well, as I said when I wrote the post, it was late and I might not have understood your (very ) long post very well.
All in all though, I'm not really qualified to say anything on the "nurture" subject, I just thought it was logical that as a result of the focus on individualism and all that jazz in the modern society that many were inclined to, as a result of their surroundings influencing them into thinking they're caught in the wrong body (or whatever), take drastic actions such as changing gender, rather than that it was a biological factor, which I don't really see the sense in (except in rare cases perhaps) Not that it changes anything, the cause isn't so important anyway.

But I'm glad you understood my view on the gender change itself. It's hard to explain, but I guess just don't consider them as real men or women, seeing as they... well, aren't really real men or women. Good for them for trying, but it's just not the real deal if they ain't got the whole package in my eyes.

[Ich 666]

Stupid Spambot is stupid