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MayheM wrote:We put these people in power and they abuse it. We complain and then put more people in power who abuse it... It is a vicious cycle and only we can stop it. The fact of the matter is, while some will argue that either side of the political spectrum is the enemy, we need to understand that they have both fucked things up for us all. Until we all get to that point, things will never really get any better.

That's one of the biggest problems with the current political systems used in the Western world, that there are only 2 parties to choose from. Don't like the current people in power? Well you can bring back the people who were there before that you didn't like either.

The result of this is a political elite who don't have to live up to voter expectations. Long story short, I do hope the "Alternative Vote" referendum we just had in the UK passes, it should help to level out the playing field a bit.

Well there are several european countries with more than two parties. Usually people only vote for one of three of the biggest though (which often form coalitions), which in effect has the same result because they all do exactly the same shit when in office. People don't vote for smaller more unknown parties because they think that would be a "wasted vote", even if they agree with their agenda. Of course in that kind of system, at least you can more or less blame the people (directly) for being retarded.

PR anyone?

But really, what does the nationality of a countries leader matter in the end? As long as they carry out the policies on which they were voted to power people should have nothing to complain about.

From an external view it seems as though nationalism in post 2000 America has grown to such an extent that the people are scrutinizing birth certificates to make sure Johnny foreigner cant get in and celebrating the killing of another human. (While Osama was indeed an evil man, however should he not be afforded the right to a fair trial as is the norm for a criminal? If it came to that it would be a trial that he would surely have lost.)

Flag waving only emphasizes the differences between peoples breeding prejudice and mistrust in all parties involved - the result of which is headlines of genocidal maniacs slaughtering different ethnic groups that don't conform with perceived national identity or maybe in a milder form race riots and water cannons.

But then I'm somewhat to the left, what do I know when it comes to patriotism? I'd have Britain a republic.

theNotSoNinja wrote:From an external view it seems as though nationalism in post 2000 America has grown to such an extent that the people are scrutinizing birth certificates to make sure Johnny foreigner cant get in and celebrating the killing of another human. (While Osama was indeed an evil man, however should he not be afforded the right to a fair trial as is the norm for a criminal? If it came to that it would be a trial that he would surely have lost.)

Going offtopic a bit here, but people celebrated the death of Raul Moat and other such monsters here in the UK so I don't feel we have moral authority to lecture other people about that sort of thing.

I honestly don't think you can really give a fair trial to someone like Bin Laden, you would never find an impartial jury for one thing. Besides, the guy openly declared war and planned acts of terrorism so it's not as if there's any doubt about his guilt. His death was no more amoral than that of any other terrorist or enemy soldier.

theNotSoNinja wrote:Flag waving only emphasizes the differences between peoples breeding prejudice and mistrust in all parties involved - the result of which is headlines of genocidal maniacs slaughtering different ethnic groups that don't conform with perceived national identity or maybe in a milder form race riots and water cannons.

But then I'm somewhat to the left, what do I know when it comes to patriotism? I'd have Britain a republic.

I think it's rather naive to say that flag waving breeds genocide. Nationalism takes many forms for better or worse - that much was evident in the recent Royal Wedding where people from many different countries were happy to join in and wave Union flags.
As far as national identity is concerned I think a mature stance is required - yes foreign countries are different, but so what? Enjoy the fact that they are different and that the world isn't one homogenous blob.

I'm not really much of a patriot myself, but I'd rather keep the Royal Family than switch over to a Presidential system. At least at the moment no one person wields extraordinary power, to me that would be a major affront to democracy.

Saxon I agree to a point on the two political parties but to some extent it is only one party at this point. Both sides have done their share to damage what this country is about. Sadly the people, myself included, have aloud it to happen. The people in our government have run things as they see fit and we have become so complacent, wee have not questioned their actions. That said, many people are waking up to this. We all know the country is in trouble and needs to be fixed. The argument in question is how to fix it. Some see it as an opportunity to transform into something different while others like myself would rather us get back to a limited government and more personal freedom. I want my country to lead by example not to go around telling people what they should do. At one point people would emulate America. That no longer happens. Now out leaders try to emulate other countries. In all honesty, with all our faults, this country was founded upon solid principles. Many have lost site of that and what made this country so great. Sorry way off topic there...

As for "what does someones nationality matter..." It is in our founding documents. It is the law. The purpose of said law is to stop another country from taking us over by putting someone in power that does not have our best interest in mind.

Ironically Saxon, we are moving closer to a singular rule. Our congress and senate have allowed power to be taken from them and given to the President slowing making themselves obsolete. Our system is sound when it is followed. the problem these days is we no longer follow our system. But I look back at our first president George Washington, who was a reluctant leader. When asked to be the president we replied "have I not yet done enough for my country?" Today, kids grow up and want to be president. People become career politicians. There is something very wrong with that. It was never meant to be what it is today. A person should not get rich serving in office yet they do. Our government has grown beyond its intended size and influence and we are now seeing the consequences.

I could go on for days talking about it...

Lastly, as for Osama getting a bullet to the head. I know people who lost family members in the attacks of 9/11. That scumbag took pride in what he had done. He deserved to die as much as a man like Hitler. There is a special place in hell for people like him and he got what was coming to him. Considering the people in Palestine cheered in the streets when the planes flew into the towers and innocent men and woman where killed. It is only fair people get a little excited when the man responsible for over 3000 deaths sees his end. He was the lowest form of life and the world is a better place without him.

Sry for joining in the off-topic parade but this really gets to me these days...

Yeah, don't hold back, party! I remember people ridiculing arabs accidentally lighting themselves on fire trying to burn american flags, or cheering terrorist acts and other repugnant crimes. Now the image is reversed when the worlds "last super power" sends a death-squad to another sovereign country and kills an alledged criminal (that is what someone is until proven guilty you know, allegded) without due process, without presenting evidence, without even presenting evidence of the killing. Now americans dance in the streets and wave flags like idiots. It's a travesty how easily the principles that are supposed to apply to everyone for a reason are trampled and broken for the sake of emotions and personal gain. "Justice has been done". Yeah, military justice in exactly the wild-west fashion that the world despises the US's foreign policy for.
Guilty until proven innocent? Not him, we hate him too much. Let's just kill him. Let's degrade ourselves by erroding the foundation our society of (alledged) equality and justice is built upon. "Everyone is the same before the law". Yeah right.
Nazis were put before a court! Evidence was produced by the allied forces even though the rubble was everwhere and they had won! To think that those times were more "civilised" makes me shudder.

Disclaimer: I don't mourn bin Laden. He was a terrorist and the world is better off without him.

He admitted it... If it was taken to trial, he would have pleaded guilty. He admitted to being responsible for countless things beyond 9/11. When you admit something publicly, you forfeit the ability to complain when you are punished without a crime. I get your point and I agree that those who are accused should have their day in court, but if you admit to it... why waste time and money when the price of a bullet will do just fine... Despite the tone of my remarks, I did not cheer when I heard he was killed. In fact I found the cheering and celebrating in the streets a bit alarming. It seemed wrong to me. Maybe it was because I remember seeing those people after 9/11 cheering in the streets and my blood boiled. Then I began to think about it, and it is two different circumstances. In one incident 3000 innocent people where killed. In the other the man who admitted he planned it and was proud of that fact was killed. Saying they are the same would be unfair.

But to take your point... Hitler never saw a trial. Yet it is taught in our books that he did many horrible things. Is there a difference between these events and the way history will treat Osama's name?

At least we both can agree that the world is a better place without him.

OK, someone flip the switch and get this train back on the tracks...

I'm relieved by your sentiments, truly. A couple of last remarks; there's clear evidence for the holocaust, and it was brought forth during the Nuremberg trials. Hitler commited suicide. Two big differences. There will (alas) never be a trial concerning 9/11.
A confession isn't proof of guilt. To make matters worse, the confession would never have held up in a court of law. It's qualiy and authenticity has been questioned a lot (and not just by conspiratist loonies). Anyways...
*flips switch*

Heheheh. That second video made me laugh. I love his nonchalant attitude as he completely debunked it.

Pictures today are meaningless. I've won a few photoshop contests and I can safely say there's nothing you can't manipulate. It's so basic, it's practically everywhere. An online scan of a document is worthless. The only way to make sure a doc is valid these days is having a trusted third party examine the original document in a lab.

Video too. Faking it takes a little more effort, but footage can't really be trusted. I can take any security camera footage and plant whatever the hell I'd like in it, and it'll be credible (unless completely unreasonable). Take this for instance:



This guy is a VFX professional, and his "innocent" movie-maker-ish presentation contributed greatly to the impression that this trick is genuin (because a crappy movie-maker edit wouldn't normally have top-notch CGI embedded).

So that's that.
Except that, Obama is a douche.

MayheM wrote: But really politically, he came out of nowhere. He was a Senator for two years before he ran.

Technically, it was closer to 3 years (January 4, 2005 - November 16, 2008). And technically, he was a state senator for around 7 years before that.

Simpletool wrote:He did the mature thing by ignoring a group of conspiracy theorists and focused on the real issues. The right have made fools out of themselves by continuing down the birther road, and attempting to shift blame to Obama for ignoring a stupid made up controversy is really sleazy.

Here here.
Though I can't condone you grouping all of "the right" into this; nothing is ever black and white like that (uh oh! on-topic pun!).

Dionysos wrote:Now the image is reversed when the worlds "last super power" sends a death-squad to another sovereign country and kills an alledged criminal (that is what someone is until proven guilty you know, allegded) without due process, without presenting evidence, without even presenting evidence of the killing. Now americans dance in the streets and wave flags like idiots. It's a travesty how easily the principles that are supposed to apply to everyone for a reason are trampled and broken for the sake of emotions and personal gain. "Justice has been done". Yeah, military justice in exactly the wild-west fashion that the world despises the US's foreign policy for.

Disclaimer: I don't mourn bin Laden. He was a terrorist and the world is better off without him.

Here here.
I really hate how we're so proud of our rights and such else, but we'll completely neglect yours if it suits our needs or makes us feel better.
Kinda the same thing with Guantanamo Bay; we cannot stand people's rights being abused... unless we're the ones abusing them. (You can argue we need that place and we might, but then we need to shut up about people and their rights. However, I say we take the morally higher road and the cost it comes with; the right way isn't always the easiest.)

MayheM wrote:OK, someone flip the switch and get this train back on the tracks...

umm...
Here here.

But unless you want to argue the legitimacy of the info from Simpletool's link...

Simpletool wrote:He released his birth certificate in 2008.

...I'd say the topic is coming to a close; people were just dragging it on in an apparent attempt to ignore the reality that Obama is rightfully president. Haters gonna hate.

Little Nitpicking there... Being a state senator gets you known in your state, sure... But as far a national politics are concerned, he was and still is very new to the stage. But also notice I said he was a senator before he "RAN"... He began his campaign at least a year before being elected thus making his tenure as a senator... you guessed it... 2 years. BOOYAH!!! Now put your rolly-eyes away...

I do agree this is pretty much a closed issue. He is the presidents like it or not. (I say as I shake my head and die a little inside...)

President's and VP's always come from no where, the less people know about them the easier it is to trick people into thinking they are good!

Saxon wrote:That's one of the biggest problems with the current political systems used in the Western world, that there are only 2 parties to choose from. Don't like the current people in power? Well you can bring back the people who were there before that you didn't like either.

The result of this is a political elite who don't have to live up to voter expectations. Long story short, I do hope the "Alternative Vote" referendum we just had in the UK passes, it should help to level out the playing field a bit.

Heh, the 2 party thing is only in the UK/USA. My country's last government had 7 different parties in it.

Mr. Happy wrote:President's and VP's always come from no where, the less people know about them the easier it is to trick people into thinking they are good!

Are you admitting that you think Obama tricked people into thinking he was good? Just curious...