WATCHMEN

[KommanderK]

The gaphic novels are alright too, but I just don't know why it is regarded as being unique when it is pretty generic.

well they were made 20 years ago, not yesterday

[MayheM]

The gaphic novels are alright too, but I just don't know why it is regarded as being unique when it is pretty generic.

well they were made 20 years ago, not yesterday

When this was created it was unheard of to have heros not be all goody two shoes... It was the first of its kind to move in that direction. If you ever hear someone refer to the comic book code... it is basically a code what says d not do what watchman did... A perfect example of this is listening to Stan Lee talk in the movie Mallrats... If you listen to what he says and then think that Watchman was the anti-comic... it did what everyone wanted to do but couldn't or where too scared to do...

[ad_hominem]

The gaphic novels are alright too, but I just don't know why it is regarded as being unique when it is pretty generic.

well they were made 20 years ago, not yesterday

When this was created it was unheard of to have heros not be all goody two shoes... It was the first of its kind to move in that direction. If you ever hear someone refer to the comic book code... it is basically a code what says d not do what watchman did... A perfect example of this is listening to Stan Lee talk in the movie Mallrats... If you listen to what he says and then think that Watchman was the anti-comic... it did what everyone wanted to do but couldn't or where too scared to do...

And as Athlete said, it is still pretty unique in the quality of writing accompanying the pictures. I can't really think of any other graphic novel that had several pages of extra reading at the end of each issue which was not necessary to the plot, but added such detail to the world in which the plot was happening.

[YokaI]

Wow, I got a lot of responses from that. Whenever I say that anywhere else people are like "but the effects look so cool!" (Which, I highly disagree) and never really get a straight answer as to WHY it really is original. I understand fully that the concept of anti-hero is unique at it's time, but why has it taken 20 years to get MASS public attention is beyond my comprehension. Notably, interest has been sparked in this graphic novel mostly because of the movie being created, until the past year I had never heard of anyone besides a few American comic book friends (I am usually arguing with them, preferring Japanese graphic-novels after all) ever really talk about the comic. When they talk about it's merits, I understand that it is important to them because they ACTUALLY LIKE graphic novels.

What I don't get, however, is why this is getting as much attention now as it should have gotten 20 years ago with the graphic novel itself. Why is it that a film adaptation receives more regard than the original? You may be saying "it was critically acclaimed when it was made" but I frankly care more about the public interest than the critic interest. The problem with this is until someone really steps out of the boundaries, and does something new and never lets anybody change it, we will always see movie heading the fore-front with public interest. Why not have the movie animated to compliment it's original format even more? Or even better, republish the original format and highly promote it across mature television broadcast companies! I would be all for that. This mass of mixed-media hollywood garbage is a bit far, and I really thought that out of all the graphic novels in America, watchmen would have been the one to step up to the plate and make a completely mature, and awesome American animation and they failed to deliver for me.

So completely underwhelmed, as Japan sees animation and graphic novel almost higher than live action, with Evangelion rebuild breaking records of past animation products that broke the movie box office record that TITANIC set, I am stuck in America where mixed media and over-produced movies are receiving all the money by taking graphic novels, animation, and unique formats and making them the same old generic crap that "everyone can enjoy" besides me, because I know for sure that until I see something break the boundaries as a FILM (that is what we are mostly discussing here) then I do not think I will be giving the theaters any of hard bucks. Not to mention that these movies are ruining ruining both the uprising movie industries that don't have the budget to make something with this many special effects and the crude lack-of-appreciation to good old, classic pure breed movies.

To sum it all up, for those who hate text, I will end it by saying my gripe is not really with the graphic novel itself. I misspoke and was bit angry because I was just out of a conversation about the topic already when I saw this post, so I may have under appreciated the novel at this time. However, I really feel like this movie is making this into something I've already seen before. Whether or not you agree, It is just my deep disappointment that I will never, ever see mature animation or graphic novels recieving huge public appeal in the United States. I wouldn't say it is the same problem with you in the European continent, I tend to find you all much more open to animation and graphic novel industries. It is much more my fury at what the graphic novel industry has become here in the united states. It isn't cool to like graphic novels, until there's a movie based on it. My 2 cents.

The gaphic novels are alright too, but I just don't know why it is regarded as being unique when it is pretty generic.

well they were made 20 years ago, not yesterday

That's already understood by me. While I am not a huge fan of american graphic novels, I do know a few basics on the topic. I just never find them that interesting to me.

@Athlete (won't quote you, or I may take up more space) : I am glad you posted to correct my mistakes, and I guess I can give the original graphic novel another shot. I just can't stand the art style myself, and while I do pay attention to the text none of it really stood out when I gave it my first read through about two years ago after recommendation. Again, it may just be my own tastes getting in the way.

[Athlete{UK}]

Hey yokai I wasn't so much trying to say you were wrong in any great sense. I jsut feel quite strongly about that particular story .

After reading your thoughts on the american comic book scene I highly recomend getting into some european comics. They get a very poor circulation outside of the EU but in our tiny little corner of the world they are huge. In the mainland they view such things in a similar way to japan elevating them beyond justcomic books.

Stuff like Black Sad, Silage, Sky doll etc.

[Ripper_hugme]

I miss the Chutulu monster ending.

[Athlete{UK}]

Went to see it last night so here are my thoughts.

I can see why sacul thinks the characters are mostly 2D. They're not, the problem is i'm assuming you've not read the graphic novel. To an extent they are generic but they are suposed to be. The Watchmen if anything was intended to be a pastich on comics so it used various archetypes to convey that idea. If you've ever tried to write something you soon realise that archetypes are a very useful tool. They are used very well in watchmen imo. The problem for new people is this film is made for people who have read the graphic novel.

This is no bad thing imo.Huge amount of backstory for all the characters which just wouldn't have made the film any better. Read the comic and you'll understand things a bit better.

I thought the film was a very faithful adaptation and it got across the key points very well. It also gets points in my book for being very much like Rorsach in that it is entirely uncompromising. It is an 18s, when do you ever see 18 rated movies these days? They are all 12a! it allows full frontal nudity, GIANT BLUE WILLIES! It is violent as fookinghiem. Most importantly they didn't dumb down the source material for anyone. Thank god. It's like the producers were able to murder all the money men before they jizzed all over the film and ruined it.

That's not to say this film was just fan service it's more a companion to the graphic novel.

Now there were some bad things i thought but then there were weak points in the comic as well.

Their portayal of Ozymandiaz I thought pushed him too much towards the villain. The whole point of the story was that there weren't any villians. That everyone had a stake and everyone did what they thought was right. It was up to the reader to draw their own conclusions. I felt that the film makers tried a little to force a conclusion on us at the end by making Ozymandiaz behave more like a fucking comedy nutcase villain. Thankfully it was never overbearing but it was enough to feel myself losing the empathy I felt for him in the book. In the book i believed him when he said he had made himself see every death. i didn't in the film. Maybe it's just that the acting in my head is better than what's on screen.

Related to this is the ending. they added the dialogue with night owl saying. "YOU DIDN'T SAVE THE WORLD YOU MUTILATED IT." Again this never occured in the book and it felt like the film makers trying to force a conclusion since this is protrayed obviously as the more heroic/right stance.

I also found the soundtrack however fucking brilliant it was didn't fit in places. The opening to Bob Dylan was inspired but Hendrix when they get to antartica? Not so much. and please My Chemical Romance? jesus this is a big boys film set in the 80s where the fuck did that come in?

There were changes I liked though.

First the removal of the squid. It was much better to have Jon framed for the incidents. The giant psycic squid was a little retarded imo. Using Jon makes far more sense and it ties the whole story together. having said that I would have liked to have seen the giant squid sprawled across New York purely for the visuals.

Night owls reaction to Rorsachs death is stronger and more emotive. In the comic he is almost entirely passive which just felt weired to me. I thought these guys were friends. he just buggers off and slips one to the spectre.

The new costumes were much better. I never liked Ozymandiaz' original uniform and whilst his was the worst in the film that was ok because it was improved greatly Also thank god they got rid of Comedians Gimp mask. The comic book was a dig at comics books at thet time. It stands to reason the movie is a dig at comic book movies as well.

Also they made the scenes with Rorsach in prison even more win.

My honest take on this is if you read the book go see this movie. It's completely brilliant. it's got its flaws and it's not the best film ever but in my eyes it's the best we could have hoped for in a Watchman movie and you'll love it. It's very faithful but still changes things for the better.

If you never read the book. Wtf is wrong with you? Go buy it.

[Sorrow]

Now, I haven't read the graphic novels so this might be just plain unfair or stupid or whatever but neither have all my classmates seen it yet they are all so awe struck and bla about this film. It makes me want to puke before even seeing it I mean it's probably another over produced piece of crap. (yeah I'm even starting to hate batman because everybody likes it. I mean that sounds sad and appears as if you want to feel different and all that crap but no it's not that really) For example my gf saying that heath ledger is such a good actor when she... I don't know copies that opinion off of whomever first said that and usually watches crap you know, I mean she's not a film fan is what I'm trying to say but all that stuff that's intended for the masses just slides right in. It angers me somewhat.

And even before I've even seen the film (so this is very biased obviously) I've already written it off as crap, you know I can't really be bothered to sit through (potentially three) hours of superhero crap. And I like batman, first film better than the second because of the slightly realistic way Bruce gets his suit and the tumbler. (them being designed by the military) anyway it isn't brilliant but it's better than nothing. That and the long and boring (as perceived by friends & co) in random asian country with the ninjas is something I enjoyed more than what followed.

Is there a point to this sad story? Not sure, the NYT review says it's sort of childish / teen like with its nihilistic view on things apparently.

I'd like to hear an opinion from one of the lopers who usually hates Hollywood trash lol and hasn't read the novel. Is it even worth it?

[Athlete{UK}]

Well sorrow unfortunatly it sounds like you've already made up your mind about it so you will probably sit there and make yourself hate the film. I suggest reading the book first since that really delivers the subject matter to you very strongly and it gives you more time to digest the themes therein. If you think it's generic that's because everything else copied it. You can pick the book up anywhere now and I dare say you could borrow it off someone if you just asked. Hell I bet some of your teachers have it.

The fact is a lot of people mistakingly write the book off because it has so much in comon with other comics. particularly the younger generation who have grown up in the Watchmen's wake. The point is it was meant to embodie superhero comics because it was intended to subvert the genre. In the same way there is a lot of similarities in the movie with other superhero movies but again that's a purposeful thing in my opinion since it pastiches them very well.

The current generation of "humanised" or "credible" comicbook movies is a direct evolution of what watchmen perpetuated. It's only right it should begin to look like the movies which it helped spawn whilst it simulatatiously becomes a black paradoy of it (just like the comedian.)

As for the New York Times. They can blow it out their arse as far as i'm concerned. It's fair to dislike the comic and movie. I mean obviously I love them but I know there are people who didn't and wont which is fair not everyone can agree with me. But attacking it for being Nihilistic is retarded. Why shouldn't it be allowed to be very pessimistic? At what point did someone say there was a set bar for how optimistic something had to be. That's a large part of the narrative. The world is suposed to be gripped in global paranoia and depression. tThe watchmen are a reflection of this. The whole point of them is what happens to these heroic ideals in a terrible world. Our world.

The book is nihilistic. Maybe overly so but that's the point. The characters are suposed to be over the top in everything and by extension so are their actions.

I hate hollywood trash too sorrow but this movie isn't. It was originally written by a British Man from the comic book industry who also hated and hates hollywood trash (overly so imo) and the film stays very close to the original print. It has also avoided any of the standard hollywood compromises during its creation. The only thing Hollywood about this movie is it's production values which I think isn't a bad thing.

In short sorrow if you go into this movie closed minding and seeing another superhero movie you're going to only see that and fucking hate it. If you go into the film with an understanding of what the source material was about, what the film is saying and what it's saying about the superhero scene (a lot of it agrees with your stances actually sorrow) you will find this a perfect companion to a brilliant book that you may or may not like but at least you have an informed opinion about.

[MayheM]

YokaI the reason it took 20 years to be made had nothing to do with mass appeal and more to do with Fox owning the rights and sitting on them. There was a lawsuit between Fox and WB about this movie. Also unfortunatly the content would not be an easy sell years ago. Going to a studio head and saying "I have a comic that I want to make into a movie and I need it to be rated R", that would not have been an easy sell. For too long comic movies have been thought of as being for kids and younger audiences. This movie and the graphic novel for that matter is far from being for kids. The reboot of Batman was the first time a movie actually geared a movie more to mass audiences rather then mainly for kids. The releae of this movie will open a lot of doors for other movies to be made, and made well... But thats jsut how I see it...

[Sorrow]

You're right I guess I'll have to dig into it a bit.

My main point was basically: people in my direct environment don't know the graphic novel but absolutely praise the film into wherever just because well "everybody" does.
Which is what happens with batman as well you know "you like it because everybody likes it" ofcourse I failed to mention I'm surrounded by idiots.

anyway yeah I'll take a look, I absolutely loathe anime/manga stuff but graphic novels are alright.

[Mr-Jigsaw]

You shouldn't distant yourself from good things just because other people like them for the wrong reasons. That is dumb. So what if everyone likes The Dark Knight, that doesn't mean you can't, same with Watchmen.

Not sure, the NYT review says it's sort of childish / teen like with its nihilistic view on things apparently.

Well, this IS the New York Times we're talking about here. I've never taken their opinion as gospel.

[Kremator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

[MayheM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

HAHAHA funny thing is people would have liked it more... Power Puff girls meets Watchman...

[YokaI]

For too long comic movies have been thought of as being for kids and younger audiences.

I can see what you mean in one aspect, but nothing has really changed. Comic books in the American eye are STILL designed for kids. The adaptation of this film makes it even less necessary to read the graphic novel.

Anyway, I am going to go see watchmen this upcoming weekend (it was planned last weekend, but some friends ditched at the last minute) and I will give my response to it. I don't expect the movie to be horrible, but I am not a fan of the visual style mixed/media ishness of it all.

@Athlete : I'll take a look at those. I love me some graphic novels!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

HAHAHA funny thing is people would have liked it more... Power Puff girls meets Watchman...

That looks nothing at ALL like Powerpuff Girls!