[CS:S REL] cs_abbey

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[CS:S REL] cs_abbey

Postby RedBodega on Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:07 pm

Howdy,

This is my first post on these forums, I have been following these forums and the threads contained within for a few months now and thought I would share some of my latest work. cs_abbey is a Counter-Strike Source custom level which presents players with an interesting romp through an old English abbey. Containing a bell tower sniper nest, a cavernous chapel, living quarters, crypt, and well appointed court yards, cs_abbey allows for the full spectrum of different playing styles. With plenty of room for 32 players and comfortable enough that 2 players will not get lost, cs_abbey guarantees not to be too chaotic or too boring.

Shameless and self-indulgent pimping aside, on a more technical note, abbey was created with all default materials, models, props, etc... this was intentional as I wanted the map to be extremely user friendly (as sometimes custom creations seem to distance themselves from the map they started with, leaving gaps or ugly pink checkered boxes ;) ). As my first release on the Source engine I am really looking to receive some comments and thoughts regarding the perception of this level. Thank you all for your time, I hope you find this level as enjoyable to play as I did to make it.

Sincerely,

RedBodega


Spawn Points: 32
Hostages: 2
Rescue Points: 1 (CT Spawn, denoted with red smoke grenade)
Level Size: Medium
Download: http://www.redbodega.com/leveldesign/files/cs_abbey.zip

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Download: http://www.redbodega.com/leveldesign/files/cs_abbey.zip
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Re: [CS:S REL] cs_abbey

Postby mookie on Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:58 pm

Played it for a little while a week or two ago. It's a nice map in some ways, but I removed it from the server afterwards.

(1) There were complaints from a lot of players about framerates. I didn't turn on wireframe to try and get a look at what was going on, but I assume that this mainly has to do with the number of windows and doors everywhere. Even so, the design of the map does not really seem hopeless as far as optimization is concerned, so probably some hints to stop leaves being visible over walls in some places needs to be done. Due to variations in hardware between players, there's no real number for an acceptable framerate. The general rule I go by is that a map should not run worse than Nuke (GPU) or Inferno (CPU).

Outside, there are a lot of enormous leaves like this (mat_leafvis 1). What this picture shows basically is that all the space inside the red wireframe box is considered equivalent, according to the engine. So everything that can be potentially seen, even from the top corners of this box (well above roof height!), will be rendered if your view is inside this box. Basically, there will be a lot of over-rendering, and so this hurts the performance a lot.

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(2) The ability to get on the roof appears to be a major unbalancing factor, in favor of the Ts.

(3) The interior is fairly convoluted, especially towards the T side. Frequently, if you know where you want to go, you go in that direction, but then can't actually get where you want to be, because you're on the wrong level, and there are no stairs nearby. Even if you're on the right level, you can find yourself searching a long distance to get between two rooms that are only separated by a wall. After playing as T on this map for about 12-15 rounds, I still had no idea how to get to the hostages, or to the ladder that goes up the tower, or how to get between the upper and lower level around T spawn, except by jumping out of a window. Navigation was pretty much by luck.

(4) The interior is very dark, and there is not a noticeable visual difference between different areas. This exacerbates #3. Paler interior wall and ceiling textures would help, along with brighter ambient lighting, and some variety to the texturing of various rooms.

(5) Most of the props inside are unnecessary. You can't see them easily because of the darkness, so they slow you down when you bump into them. The area around T spawn feels very cluttered. These probably put a general performance hit on the map as well.
"When you mess up, it makes me feel better about me." -- Vince Masuka
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Re: [CS:S REL] cs_abbey

Postby RedBodega on Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:48 pm

Mookie, Thank you for your very articulate and insightful reply, it is really appreciated to get some genuine feedback regarding this release.

I was not aware there were serious frame rate issues with the level, as I am on a rather powerful computer, however after the release this has come to light. I had assumed the Half-Life 2 engine would be able to handle the quantity of windows and ability to render into those areas much better than it appears to do so, however I can admit I did not attempt to optimize visibility as much as I should have. Among other things I have also learned that there are many tools (hint brushes as you had mentioned as well as func_viscluster, etc.) to help optimize and reduce visibility issues, all of which I will definitely be utilizing in future projects.

Regarding the roof access, originally I did not intended to let any players on to the rooftops but I wanted to try to develop a completely unrestricted map, where invisible walls of clip don't hinder players from getting to places. I can definitely see problems with the T's having a large advantage to the roof as their spawn is most accessible compared to the CT's journey into the abbey to get to the tower/roof, again I didn't realize this as I was developing it.

As far as the layout goes, I definitely would like to receive more feedback regarding this aspect. I specifically designed the level with lots of height variation in mind and I felt as though the ability to break a window and then jump through it would provide enough egress access as to not trap players or make players feel restricted. At the same time I didn't want it to be extremely easy for either team to accomplish objectives through a singular path, avoiding the rest of the layout for just the path of least resistance. Definitely looking for more feedback on this as well.

Regarding lighting and props, since the level is an old English abbey I did opt for a darker tone/feel to the lighting. I am hoping this doesn't hinder players from identifying friendlies vs. enemies or from navigating the level. As for the props, I tried to use them sparingly, however I also didn't want an empty feel to the level.


Once again, I really appreciate your feedback, everything you mentioned I will definitely take into great consideration on my next project. Among other things, I've also learned there is tremendous value in having a group of real players test the map during it's development to be able to correct the issues you listed before releasing the map. Bots just don't give as good of feedback ;) . Thank you for taking your time to play and review the level, I look forward to more feedback on this project as well as any future releases/projects.
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Re: [CS:S REL] cs_abbey

Postby mookie on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:38 pm

I never realized you could go through the windows, because the prop that separates the panes stays in there even after you shoot the glass. I don't remember seeing any other players go through the windows either. I assume they all also assumed that the windows were impassible.

Walking around the map more now, it seems like the layout is not that difficult to understand. There are some issues though that make it difficult to figure out:

The inside consists mainly of two different buildings, connected mainly by the courtyard/balcony and a skywalk. However, from the inside, the skywalk actually looks like it's a room inside a single building. There are windows on one side but not the other, suggesting to the eye that there is more inside-building space on the one side of it. There are clear doorways separating the skywalk from T spawn and the stairs opposite, as well as a doorway separating it from the middle stairs. But there is not even a threshold separating the skywalk itself from either side. So, rather than looking like you're traveling between two semi-detached buildings, it looks like you're traveling within a single room.

The radar overview is very nearly useless. It's a picture of the rooftops, meaning there is no indication of the interior walls of the map. It mainly only answers the question, "is there a roof above me," which is relatively easy to figure out anyway. An overview taken from a lower height, with an alpha channel, and very clearly defined walls/impassible areas would be much more useful. Ideal would be a blend of overviews taken at each of the three levels.

The only textures that are varied are the floor textures, and the difference between them is really only noticeable as brownish vs. whitish. The wall texture is fairly busy, so that the difference between areas with flat walls and areas with partially-recessed walls is not easily visible. Several different interior stylings (neat and clean stone in paler shades, smooth plaster, wood paneling, etc.) would make it much easier to tell different areas apart.

The stairways are hard to find. If you don't know where they are, you can run right by them. A stairway is a key portal between areas in this map, so it should be well-lit and easily visible. The overall lack of light inside, and the busy wall texture, exacerbate this problem. As an example, the stairway leading up towards the hostages (most important stairs in the map) is almost invisible until you're in it. Viewed from most angles, the wall that runs alongside it is indistinguishable from the end of the wall that runs in front of it. No light emanates from the stairway, leaving no indication that this is anything other than a dark corner. There is little contrast between the floor and the walls, making the space difficult to notice.

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The ladder up to the tower was very difficult to find. I now realize this is because it's in a second-story area that's completely cut off from the rest of the second story. It makes sense that the second story at the front of the church area is separate from the T-side building, but this area looks exactly the same. I found my way up here by accident to begin with, but because it looks just like the whole second story around T spawn there was no reason to think that you would have to go down some stairs then up some other stairs to find it again. Also, the area is dimly-enough lit that it's not even obvious when you're there that it's nothing but a small L-shaped hallway.

The church area is tougher than necessary to figure out, because, unlike a church, it's highly asymmetrical. One side features a stairway up to a dark balcony, a tiny lounge area with a fireplace, and a small courtyard. The other opens directly onto the "crypt." One side has windows, the other doesn't, because of the attached rooms. The general style of churches, which is to be shaped either as a rectangle or as a cross, is completely unrecognizable because of the hodgepodge of attached rooms and stairways.
"When you mess up, it makes me feel better about me." -- Vince Masuka
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