Huge outdoors displacement based map

[Mr. Happy]

Indeed, plus alllllll that triangle and uv data will be massive file size compared to how it could be. 1 tree three times is alot more efficient than three trees 1 time.

[Campaignjunkie]

An idea I tried when I was prototyping my own giant displacement terrain maps: export the displacements as a low-poly prop_static and use that in your 3D skybox. When you set a fade distance with env_fog_controller, your level geo will blend seamlessly with the 3D skybox (which always gets rendered after!) so you can get sort of a terrain LoD thing going on.

[Groxkiller585]

Plus think of the collision, I'm pretty sure you'd hit the convex count on that and then some trees would have collision and some wouldn't.

[snah]

yeah all good ideas guys . i think this prop placement program should be finished quite soon. Back to uni so ive got other things to concentrate on but i think im going to start a new level soon with L3DT. make a 4096 texture for the ground, with normals and 2 detail textures for the rock and grass. Gonna make this map the bomb.

[Gradius]

I think a chunk of trees (say three or four) probably would help quite a bit since you'd be halving your actual tree count as far as the engine is concerned.

[snah]

the problem with groups of trees is they cant all sit on a rough bit of terrain at the same time . and i dont intend to custom make 200 or so GROUPS of trees to sit perfectly in certain places all over the terrain. No. Im going with the single tree per prop_static approach i think. I'll just have to do.

[Gradius]

That's why you sink them slightly, but whatever.

[nub]

That will work in most cases but if the terrain in a certain spot varies enough, some of the trees will look awkward because they're so far in to the ground. You'd honestly be better off importing parts of the terrain in to Max (or whatever program you use) then placing your tree models accordingly, delete the terrain, then compile that tree group as a single model. It would certainly take much more time but it would be worth it if you want to get the best look possible.

And as for the trees themselves, I would definitely try and make them as low poly as possible, as well as making their collisions as cheap but reasonable as possible. Just making the trunks collide should be perfect. Just use a really low poly cylinder primitive; like 6 sides or something.

Oh and for the sake of texture memory, try and make all the trees use the same materials. Well, that's a given if they're all the same type of tree, but I've seen games where there's one texture that several different models used (Metro 2033 in particular). Like a "collage" of UV maps.

[snah]

That's why you sink them slightly, but whatever.

wont work on the steep hills im using here, even to have a group of 2-3 trees would immediately cause either HUGE sinking on one or massive over hangs on the other... i want this map to look nice.

That will work in most cases but if the terrain in a certain spot varies enough, some of the trees will look awkward because they're so far in to the ground. You'd honestly be better off importing parts of the terrain in to Max (or whatever program you use) then placing your tree models accordingly, delete the terrain, then compile that tree group as a single model. It would certainly take much more time but it would be worth it if you want to get the best look possible.

however i dont want the map to take up loads of space on the HD becuase ive bespoke made 100 or so tree groups and there are 100 model files to download .

And as for the trees themselves, I would definitely try and make them as low poly as possible, as well as making their collisions as cheap but reasonable as possible. Just making the trunks collide should be perfect. Just use a really low poly cylinder primitive; like 6 sides or something.

Yep, im using a 5sided cylinder and thats all, just like the last trees i made they'll have loads going all the way down to a few faces for billboards i think. but ill try and make this look a lot nicer.

Oh and for the sake of texture memory, try and make all the trees use the same materials. Well, that's a given if they're all the same type of tree, but I've seen games where there's one texture that several different models used (Metro 2033 in particular). Like a "collage" of UV maps.

Good plan but i dont think ill have more than a few seperate models (some rocks, some trees) and anything thats a similar type of model will share the same texture for sure.



Here are some 3d skybox shots from the new level im working on, just need to fix the texture differences (due to the detail texture im using on the ground making it slightly darker than the default texture im using on the skybox) i hope thats the only problem... Im sure the source engine uses different methods for lighting models than it does for lighting displacements... hopefully nothing i cant cover up. The skybox mesh is just over 5000tris and i plan on doing some serious backface culling on it too since the player only really sees it from one position all the time.

Ive now intergrated this project into my 3rd year university dissertation/research report and im going to treat this thread like a journal and possibly include a link to this thread in my hand in. i hope thats ok with everyone, please tell me now if that bothers anyone or is breaking some rules in interlopers.

Cheers for all the input again guys! Keep the ideas and suggestions coming, its always nice to hear someone else's perspective on something.

[snah]

lol sorry for double post, but if you look at the 2nd screenshot i posted... the way the hand is gestured, reminds me of: "one day Simba, all this will be yours"... "except of course for the elephant grave yard."

Also:

Any idea why suddenly my ground starts rendering black when i allow VRAD to run. If i turn vrad off its fine. This only happened at about the same time i put some fog in and i set the res of the light map on the terrain to something a lot higher to stop engine hunk overflow occurring. I cant work out why its doing this. Anyone had this before?

[omnicoder]

With such a high lightmap res the trees may be blocking most of the light causing most of the averages used by VRAD to be black. Or it could just be Yet Another Obscure Compile Bug.

[snah]

With such a high lightmap res the trees may be blocking most of the light causing most of the averages used by VRAD to be black. Or it could just be Yet Another Obscure Compile Bug.

Ah, its not the trees. I only just put those in just now. This bug started occurring before i put the trees in. Tomorrow ill go through the tedious process of trouble shooting. Ill try changing lightmap scales, light settings, VMT settings etc... I may end up making the terrain texture fullbright tbh and baking the trees shadows to the texture since it looks better without source's shitty light maps baked ontop of my already crisp light map.

The thing is... i complain about it and stuff... But its actually a lot of fun working around and under hammer. You never work WITH hammer... hammer always works against you in every way it can. And when you whip it and make it do what you want its so god damn satisfying. Thats why i felt a bit sick using Unity during the summer. Everything just worked, ITS JUST WORKED. Models imported without fault, terrains built as big as you wanted. It never crashed, it never froze... Infact nothing went wrong at all. and i absolutely hated it. I love hammer so much because when you make something great in it youve actually achieved something, youve not just pressed a button and its all done. at least thats how i see it.

[Saxon]

It's quite possible you have some NODRAW brushes clipping through the top of the displacements. This will completely black out the displacement, so make sure that any NODRAW brushes are beneath the visible surface of displacment surfaces.

[srredfire]

Stupid suggestion, but is it the shadows from the props on the displacement perhaps? Have you tried "disable shadows" on the props?

[snah]

it was the mesh for the 3d skybox had shadows enabled and was some how casing a full shadow over the ground. fixed now