CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Mar 8* IMAGE HEAVY

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CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Mar 8* IMAGE HEAVY

Postby MayheM on Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:08 pm

So back before Source was around I created a map called cs_waterside. This was back in 2004. At the time it was viewed by a lot of people as beautiful with some flaws. Those flaws were mainly do to performance issues and the limitations of the engine I had yet to fully understand. Over the years I have wanted to rebuild the map with the knowledge I have gained and the skills I have learned and most of all with Source I would be able to do a lot of things that could not be done in the past. Mapping for other games got in the way but a week ago, I installed CS 1.6 and downloaded cs_waterside after about 30 minutes of searching to find the file. I then walked through the map taking note of things that needed to be fixed and changed all the while taking screenshots and sketching out ideas. Once I had a good basis to start, I opened up hammer and started pounding away at the layout.

Progress as of Mar 8th

I have been slowly adding details to the map. I am still working on some textures, and the creation of a few models using propper. But I am really happy with they way it is coming along. I have also begun to mess with the lighting a bit. The outside I like, the inside... some areas need work. Last night I added the random hostage spawning which I feel will help balance out game play. Enough words, here are the latest screenshots...

Front of the House (added shutters)
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Caves illuminated with fire
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Added the Waterfall
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The Foyer
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Driveway
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Backyard from the Left
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Backyard from the Right
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Bar
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Kitchen
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New Basement
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Livingroom from the windows
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Livingroom from other side
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Theater (with scrolling credits)
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I will post more as I get it done. Please feel free to comment and crit.

Progress as of Jan 25th

I finally was able to get my detail sprites working and have eliminated the rain for now.I also added the blend texture for the driveway which I think looks nice. So here are four more screenshots for now...

Behind the Garage
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Front of House on Left Side
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Looking down towards the Stream
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From CT Spawn looking up the driveway
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I still have a lot more work to do, but it is coming along well. I have been going through and adding details and messing with the soundscape a bit. I plan to add a lot of position sounds like wind through the trees and birds etc... I also still have a lot of work to do on textures. Plus I am looking for some good models to help clean things up a bit.

**Progress as of Jan 21st

Additional Screenshots to show elevation differences on the side routes. I am working on some other ideas to improve gameplay, though it is actually pretty good now. I started working on the detail sprites last night and I have a few of the grass textures masked and ready. Now comes the hard part for me, the coding. But I think I will be able to get it to work right.

Anyway, here are the additional screenshots...

From CT Spawn, Ladder to left path and Entrance to Caves
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Wine Cellar and Entry to the House From Caves
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In the Caves looking into the Cellar
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Theater in Basement
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I am still workings on detailing the caves, adding roots and smaller rocks in there. I also plan to add better lighting. At present it is a combination of glow sticks and lamps hanging from the ceiling which are powered by a generator in the caves. I would rather have something a bit nicer which adds some life to the caves.

As for the theater, the lighting will be improved as well. This was just a simple setup for now to get it started, but I have an animated credit roll with some music in there.

I will post more screens after this weekend. I still have a lot more work to do...

**Progress as of Jan 18th

Overview
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From the Garage
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Towards the Garage
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Left Side of the House
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Down by the River
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Back of the House
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Living Room
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Still working on interior lighting, but I like the outside lighting a lot. I set up HDR, though these images do not show it. So hit me with some feedback...
Last edited by MayheM on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:15 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby RA7 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:53 pm

hee mayem, not working on DEADLOCK??? :-)

Like these pics ..;-)
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby Armageddon on Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:04 pm

Looks good, wish I could have made GoldSrc maps.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby MayheM on Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:24 am

I did a bit of work with the rock displacements around the house and this is the current lighting...

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I am definitely liking the night time, I may brighten it up a little, but it will be raining with thunder and lightning for sure...

As for deadlock, it is still in the works but I have some things I want to learn first. I rearranged the arcade and I want to make custom arcade models for it so it is not an entire room of the same games over and over. I mean who would go to an arcade that had nothing but mortal Combat and Pac-Man?
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby Armageddon on Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:51 am

Don't really like the new lighting, I think the daytime rain would have been cool. Hey, I'd go to an arcade with Mortal Combat and Pac-Man! :P
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby darkpivot on Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:35 am

Looking nice so far, the outdoor lighting still needs work though. I'm not a fan of the new lighting either.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby Saxon on Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:48 am

The structuring and detail of interior and exterior look pretty good so far, try adding some ferns or bushes around those rocks so that they don't contrast so heavily with the grass (or maybe add some detail sprite grass?)

Lighting is always a complicated task to get right. If you're going to go with a night setting, be sure to have your outdoor areas use some desaturating colour_correction.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby mookie on Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:14 pm

Completely unfamiliar with Waterside, so keep that in mind:

Not much there yet but the brushwork looks nice at this point. The inside lighting looks way too low, you can pretty easily where it's at just by looking at the view model which is pretty close to black. You especially can't see what's going on on the walls up the upper tier of the ceiling.

Not sure what the general style of this room is going to be, but doing something interesting with the lights here is probably an option especially with the shape of the ceiling. Like maybe running a strip of recessed selfillum white texture at the top of the wall between the two ceilings, or having a big flat ceiling brush hanging down a bit from the upper ceiling and having light glow out from above that. Anything like this of course would be fairly modern-looking.

You might want to build the archways with a flat top instead of a point at the top, since when you look at it from an angle, the front edge of the near wall and the back edge of the far wall tend to make it extra pointy anyway.

The wood floor texture has a nice colour to it, although maybe it could go even a darker and browner. If you find it isn't bouncing enough light around, you could probably compile with a much paler version of the texture and then just swap the VTF afterwards.

Looking at the front of the house, the one window on the far right section looks odd all by itself. If it's just one window here, it could be much wider.

The new outdoor lighting is on the verge of being too dark. It's might be OK, but if there are going to be any areas in serious shadows the ambient light probably needs to be stronger. For a dark environment, it probably makes sense to get most of your textures somewhat desaturated and as close to the same value as possible. If you go with a darker grey on the rock wall texture, you can probably raise the light without losing the night effect. What will probably make or break the night environment is not how dark the light is, but how clear the contrast is between the lit and unlit areas. Bright, warm light coming from the windows will make the rest of the outside feel much darker than it is. If there are areas that are far away from the house (not familiar with the map), a lonely lamp here and there will help support the same effect.

The foot of your rock walls could probably be a lot steeper, going up to about waist-height. Having the rock spread out smoothly into the ground will only look good if you blend the two displacements together, and makes it harder to use the rock as hard cover. Having a steep bit of wall also gives an easy place to put a player clip where people won't get surprised by it (although that is true whether it's near the foot of the wall or not).
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Re: CS Waterside: Source

Postby MayheM on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:57 am

I have continued to work on this for a little while now and have completed the main layout. I have been making some textures and adding some normal maps and generally going through, refining things and adding more detail. I plan to add custom detail sprites which i have started the grueling task of masking the grass images I will be using.

New Screenshots added to original post...
Last edited by MayheM on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby Ark11 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:00 am

Very nice map, but why are the Hostages in the 'Arms-Out' Position. Btw, could I offer my services as a playtester?
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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby MayheM on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:15 am

The hostages fell victim to a model replacement mishap. I installed some custom hostage models and when i deleted them the hostages were never the same...

I am still doing private testing at the moment, but I will keep you in mind when we test again. Your ping may suck out loud since you are in Australia, but if you don't mind...
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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby Smurftyours on Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:37 pm

Is it just me or are some of those trees made out of brushes? Or are those just low poly models? Or distance LODS?
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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby trcc on Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:49 pm

Smurftyours wrote:Is it just me or are some of those trees made out of brushes? Or are those just low poly models? Or distance LODS?


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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby MayheM on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:03 pm

They are models, I am not sure of the poly count though. Regardless, It allows me to have a lot of trees with little loss in frames. Considering how wide open the map is, and my frames never drop below 200 I would say it is a good trade off. Granted I have areaportaled the hell out of it and used some well place hint brushes, but I never dreamed I would have this thing run as well as it does.
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Re: CS Waterside: Source *UPDATED Jan 18*

Postby mookie on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:54 pm

Based on the overview, it looks like a very difficult map for the Ts to defend. The three rescue zones to the south don't look like they can be defended/interdicted from a single point, and there is another zone at the opposite end of the map, meaning Ts will have to guess right to even have a chance (unless they are well enough manned to cover both ends at once, in which case hopefully they'd still be working on the house).

I think I see three routes to the house from the south, and two from the north (unless there is another way in by the garage as well). That would make five ways, compared to the usual three or four, and most of the perimeter of the house doesn't look to be especially useful as cover, especially considering that CTs can approach from just about every direction (if you try to work any corner of the house except the two southeast corners, you'll get shot in the back). The box truck is big enough, but also looks far enough out in the open that if you were about to be overrun, falling back would mean crossing a fairly large open space (i.e. the only attractive strategy with it would be to sit inside and set up a crossfire with teammates in or around the garage). This will probably mean that the Ts for the most part will not want to go outside unless they're trying to get behind someone, so by default the whole outside is a CT area (like Office).

Varying the ground level immediately around the house should be able to create some cover. The deck could be high enough off the ground that a crouched player can get complete cover from the deck itself, or even high enough to walk underneath, and there's no reason it has to be on level ground. The height of the planters and hedges seems fairly useless from a gameplay perspective (except as a step to get into the windows); they look too low to use as cover, but they may make it a bit harder to use the corners of the building as you'll fall off or bump into them as you sidestep around. Making the hedges somewhat taller so the corner of the hedges can be used as cover is one thought, setting them up away from the walls so that you can walk behind them in some places is another, changing some of them into bushes with solid cores and illusionary outer branches so you can walk between them is another. It looks like the windows are low enough to crouch-jump from the ground, so that's probably one purpose that's not actually necessary for the shrubbery.

Dropping the ground so that some of the windows are inaccessible without a boost may be a good idea as well, since it seems like once the CTs are around the outside of the house they'll be able to break in just about anywhere they want. Restricting them to doors, a handful of windows, and the two stairways onto the deck should help give the Ts a fighting chance inside.

To summarize the above, I'm thinking that the CTs can surround the house with impunity, and then attack probably a dozen points or more, which would make this play more or less like a shooting gallery. If the design is close to the original, it should be pretty easy to tell if this is correct or not (might not be).

The route running along the southwest edge of the map seems too isolated, since it will take a long time to run the whole length of it, and until you get to the other end you really can't do anything useful. It also seems like it gives the CTs too much of an advantage by giving them a spot to pick Ts on or around half of the deck, then turn around and attack and Ts watching the big rock, or rush straight down the stairs. This would probably be OK, except that there are already four other approaches to the house, and the time it would take the Ts to flank this position looks prohibitive. Making this route open up much closer to the big rock might be better, so might connecting it to the center route instead of forcing the Ts to run all the way out to the street to go around (or CTs, if they decide to change direction). Ideally, I'd lose it entirely. Turning it into a one-way drop and carving it out a bit underneath might be a thought, as it would force the CTs to have to turn around and look down as they went over, and once they were down they wouldn't have the option of falling back.

The route running along the eastern edge also seems excessively long and lonely. Presumably this is meant to give the CTs a chance to transfer between the two sides of attack, and the Ts a chance to transfer between the two rescue zones, but it looks much too long for that. You could probably connect it to the driveway just south of the box truck and eliminate the southeast corner, and/or change the tunnel from E-WNW to NNW-SE and eliminate the northeast corner. The tunnel itself could probably take up more of the distance, which might help make this area more distinct. Ideally, I'd make this as quick a connection as possible between the two rescue zones. Raising part of this route (and/or cutting a depression in the walls) enough to give a partial view of some useful part of the house (a place where the hosties would come out, or a window the Ts are likely to snipe out of) might be interesting.

I can't really see enough of the inside to tell what's going on there. Hopefully there are a fair number of places you can stand without being seen from the outside. I'm thinking that the hostages need to be kept in a more defensible spot than right by the windows in the living room.

The exterior wall texture seems like it should be neater, to go better with the ornate trim above, maybe even a tight brick texture with very little mortar visible. As it is now, it could just be that the shadows from the bumpmapping on the wood are too strong. The chimney texture looks good, but the colour doesn't go well with the exterior wall texture.

The fireplace looks odd. I'm not sure if it's because it extends so far into the room, or because the brick goes over the mantle.

It seems like the wood trim on the inside walls and around the windows and doorways should be the same wood (the windows and doors seem darker, maybe just the light). From the inside, the windows look like they go down lower than they need to. It may be looking more uncomfortable than it needs to because of the chair rail running right across it. The windows props themselves don't really seem to fit with the outside, so it might make sense to get the window frames settled where you want them, then find or make a window to go in them. Since they'll get shot out pretty quickly, they probably don't need to look great on close inspection, just good enough not to stand out. Just a thin func_breakable of a good, clean glass texture would probably do fine.

The outside light looks good, although the shadows seem too deep (screenshots will tend to be dark though).

The edge between the driveway and the grass might be a good spot to use $blendmodulatetexture, which I think is usable in CSS now. Can't really tell from these screens if you did that already or not. The grass around most of the outside of the house could definitely use a second grass texture blended in, maybe just a recolor a little more towards kelly green or turquoise.

The shape of the roof looks a little off; you might want to try running it all the way up to a point/line to see how that looks.
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