City 17 style street map, Stuck on design!

[Modifier]

Hi there

Im not new to mapping and I wouldnt exactly call myself a noob nor a pro. But with this map map im making, it just looks so noobish its a insult even to me! I only started this like 2 weeks ago, i should have completed this section in like 1 week if that! What Im trying to make is a typical city 17 style street/road for a map which i have been planning to make ( and the the city in this map will be called city 9, but i want it to look very similar to city 17 ). I dont know what im doing wrong, it just looks rubbish nothing like city! I get pictures of city 17, look at eastern european architecture and designs, read the theory of colour so i could make a nice compisision.

But still, the whole thing just looks wrong! Its doing my head in! I know that I could make this place look more detailed by adding clutters of garbage, abandoned cars on the road which can act as cover. But that is so typical, why cant I make a good looking map without adding dozens of garbage and dirt all over the place. Can any of you give me some tips, hints, ideas of what to do please Its so frustrating seeing my work just degrade itself! Heck i will link you to some of my other work! look at how crap this is in comparison! But Im just going to serve this map as a learning process now. So please if anyone could just give me some help to make this more detailed, or even to add to the layout of that road, to make it look like city 17, anything at all please tell me! If you think it looks shit tell me why and I will take everything on board! I cant beleive im saying this... I need help lol.

Heres some pictures

Thank you for any feedback, its really appreaciated!

[cpl. punishment]

For me, the biggest problem with the architecture is that it is very flat, especially on the vertical plane. I would recommend some variation, like inset windows, balconies, maybe some shops on the first floor of some of the buildings, and definitely more props. Also, turn that street into a displacement. Very rarely are blacktop roads ever completely flat.

Your skybox is turned the wrong way. In the map properties option, make sure it has _hdr at the end of the name of the skybox texture. You may also want to experiment with a new skybox and/or environment lighting. The lighting you have now is nearly 90°. Check out this list (if you haven't already) and try some skyboxes with a lower sun angle. Adding depth to your shadows will give your map a higher contrast, and should make it look more visually appealing.

[rookiehy2]

For me, the street can be bend a little bit(not a long straight road). And most important is the buildings should have different height so that you can see the buildings behind it.
example

[MayheM]

Actually, in all honesty the main issue is your lack of planning and the process of you building. It is hard to actually finish a map when you do not have a good idea of layout before you start in hammer. I have found that when I build on the fly in hammer I get a lot done fast and then hit a wall. The map may look nice, but game-play is crap. Once you have a lot of detail int he map it is hard to go back and edit the layout without having to destroy the work you have already done.

Your level looks very much like the levels I used to start. I would build bit by bit and never finish. With any art form, it is always a good idea to create in passes of detail. At first just use dev textures to make your layout. then you can play-test the map while still in that form and find bugs and improve the playing experience. It will also allow you to compile the levels very quickly since you will not have a lot of detail to render. Once you have the layout done you can go on and add details.

When I started to build like this, I noticed my level of mapping went up a good deal. I was able to make things faster and I did not get stuck as much. Mainly because I was not trying to make it look nice at first. I was not stuck on which brick texture to use or what model to use, etc... Take that advice if you want, but this is honestly the best way to be sure you don't get "stuck on design"

[Ark11]

City 17 is based on East European cities such as Prague or Budapest, get pictures of them to use as reference shots.

[Modifier]

For me, the biggest problem with the architecture is that it is very flat, especially on the vertical plane. I would recommend some variation, like inset windows, balconies, maybe some shops on the first floor of some of the buildings, and definitely more props. Also, turn that street into a displacement. Very rarely are blacktop roads ever completely flat.

Your skybox is turned the wrong way. In the map properties option, make sure it has _hdr at the end of the name of the skybox texture. You may also want to experiment with a new skybox and/or environment lighting. The lighting you have now is nearly 90°. Check out this list (if you haven't already) and try some skyboxes with a lower sun angle. Adding depth to your shadows will give your map a higher contrast, and should make it look more visually appealing.

Thank you for your reply, and I see what you mean by flat, I have now made some of the winows inset, and also added a balconey on one of the buildings which seems to have made it more interesting. Shops on the first floor would be a great idea. What sort of props would you suggest? rather than the typical ' add trash all over the place' ? . should i turn the road into a displacement then? how would a displacement help, i mean i use displacements on grass and stuff but why a road which is meant to be flat? or is it only meant to add little bumps here and there? sorry for the noobish questions I really want to learn, first time i have been stuck on a map in a while properly. And i didnt even notice about the skybox will look into that and I made standard lighting for the most part because i cant stand the bland lighting you get without light_env ! but thanks for the link will use that!

For me, the street can be bend a little bit(not a long straight road). And most important is the buildings should have different height so that you can see the buildings behind it.
example

This was actually i reference picture i used ! So you can tell what I am trying ( and failing -_- ) to acheive! I was thinking about adding a curve or bend but i didnt know where I guess this is where my planning failed a bit :/. And yeah I was thinking loads about building height and stuff before even mapping this, but it seems im not sure which buildings to insert. i dont want to copy this road 100% building for building. But this was my main reference picture tbh. Thanks for the advice will see if i can change the building heights a bit.

Actually, in all honesty the main issue is your lack of planning and the process of you building. It is hard to actually finish a map when you do not have a good idea of layout before you start in hammer. I have found that when I build on the fly in hammer I get a lot done fast and then hit a wall. The map may look nice, but game-play is crap. Once you have a lot of detail int he map it is hard to go back and edit the layout without having to destroy the work you have already done.

Your level looks very much like the levels I used to start. I would build bit by bit and never finish. With any art form, it is always a good idea to create in passes of detail. At first just use dev textures to make your layout. then you can play-test the map while still in that form and find bugs and improve the playing experience. It will also allow you to compile the levels very quickly since you will not have a lot of detail to render. Once you have the layout done you can go on and add details.

When I started to build like this, I noticed my level of mapping went up a good deal. I was able to make things faster and I did not get stuck as much. Mainly because I was not trying to make it look nice at first. I was not stuck on which brick texture to use or what model to use, etc... Take that advice if you want, but this is honestly the best way to be sure you don't get "stuck on design"

You see this is strange because I spent a while planning this, like i do with my maps usually i get pen/pencil paper and start drawing a layout, add in bullet points what might happen in the level get the layout done and then accept that maybe 20% of the layout might be changed during building it for 'gameplay' purposes. But i think my planning did fail, i have been panicking so much lately because I want to get into the industry so bad im rushing. Also I made this entire street in dev textures first, but it just wasnt doing anything, like just didnt even look right, so i made one building with textures, then the next, and more was getting done, but now i agree, i have hit that block which all designers seem to go through somewhere in there maps at some point. mine is just rather large. another thing, with the dev textures do you recommend doing the WHOLE map in dev textures first? how detailed should buildings and the road be in dev textures bsp wise? should buildings be huge orange and gray blocks? or should they have window insets and stuff alreadt prepared? I ask this because I never really got the hang of it to be honest. another thing? when you say planning, should i plan EVERY single building in advance, most of the time when dev texturing a street i make the buildings just blocks of orange or gray with no detail and not really knowing what building it will be. i take it this is bad? sorry for the seemingly noobish questions, i have made a few really detailed maps, its almost an insult to myself to see me ask such stupid questions :/ but everyone gets stuck and needs help somewhere or other, helps them know what steps to take in the long run

Thanks for your replys guys, will show you updated pics soon thanks.

[Modifier]

City 17 is based on East European cities such as Prague or Budapest, get pictures of them to use as reference shots.

Will do got some already from ages ago of prague, will try budapest pictures, see if there is anything inspirational or anything that would add to this level

[Modifier]

Ok here are the updated pictures, tell me what you think. still havnt made road into displacement as not quite sure How would use the displacement for a road like that. any tips hugely welcomed.


Building now changed with some newer textures in places, a balconey, doors, and inset windows.


Another angle


Havnt changed anything here but thought a closer look my help you guys see what i have done


Another Angle




Also I was looking up reference pictures to, and I cant seem to find anything similar to valves work on half life 2 :S. I mean i searched up eastern european citys and streets and looked at prague and budapest to but looking at the streets they are nothing like half life 2's, some of the buildings are though, just makes me think how valve managed to make there maps, when these pictures look nothing like half life 2' s streets. This confuses me often because also when i make some maps i struggle with reference pictures because they end up looking like the picture not a game :S I dont know if you get what i mean, but compare these.










Now for the reference pics













They might not be great reference pictures but do you see my point? :S


See what I mean? these are the same countries valve focused on, but still it doesnt look anything like there streets :S how on earth did they use the reference pictures to there advantage then? how could I do the same as them?

[cpl. punishment]

Thank you for your reply, and I see what you mean by flat, I have now made some of the winows inset, and also added a balconey on one of the buildings which seems to have made it more interesting. Shops on the first floor would be a great idea. What sort of props would you suggest? rather than the typical ' add trash all over the place' ? . should i turn the road into a displacement then? how would a displacement help, i mean i use displacements on grass and stuff but why a road which is meant to be flat? or is it only meant to add little bumps here and there? sorry for the noobish questions I really want to learn, first time i have been stuck on a map in a while properly. And i didnt even notice about the skybox will look into that and I made standard lighting for the most part because i cant stand the bland lighting you get without light_env ! but thanks for the link will use that!

In addition to the changes I suggested earlier, you may want to look at moving some of the buildings closer to, or further from the sidewalk, or make some buildings taller than others. Try to break up the uniformity. For props, just search until you find some ornaments to, again, make the buildings less uniform. You could, for example, put pipes on the side of a building, running down to the street, or add some machinery to the sides (substation models might work here). Adding Combine occupied areas and buildings would also offer contrast.

It's barely noticeable, but streets aren't perfectly flat. They usually are slightly higher in the middle so that water runs to the sides of the road when it rains. Some bumps and dips would certainly help make the road look like it has been thoroughly used. Also, if you use displacements for your road, you can use an alpha-blended texture to blend between a pavement texture and another texture (like dirt, gravel, or another pavement texture) to break up the monotony of a tiled texture.

[Modifier]

Thank you for your reply, and I see what you mean by flat, I have now made some of the winows inset, and also added a balconey on one of the buildings which seems to have made it more interesting. Shops on the first floor would be a great idea. What sort of props would you suggest? rather than the typical ' add trash all over the place' ? . should i turn the road into a displacement then? how would a displacement help, i mean i use displacements on grass and stuff but why a road which is meant to be flat? or is it only meant to add little bumps here and there? sorry for the noobish questions I really want to learn, first time i have been stuck on a map in a while properly. And i didnt even notice about the skybox will look into that and I made standard lighting for the most part because i cant stand the bland lighting you get without light_env ! but thanks for the link will use that!

In addition to the changes I suggested earlier, you may want to look at moving some of the buildings closer to, or further from the sidewalk, or make some buildings taller than others. Try to break up the uniformity. For props, just search until you find some ornaments to, again, make the buildings less uniform. You could, for example, put pipes on the side of a building, running down to the street, or add some machinery to the sides (substation models might work here). Adding Combine occupied areas and buildings would also offer contrast.

It's barely noticeable, but streets aren't perfectly flat. They usually are slightly higher in the middle so that water runs to the sides of the road when it rains. Some bumps and dips would certainly help make the road look like it has been thoroughly used. Also, if you use displacements for your road, you can use an alpha-blended texture to blend between a pavement texture and another texture (like dirt, gravel, or another pavement texture) to break up the monotony of a tiled texture.

thanks for your reply

I have now made the road a displacement although and slightly higher in the middle which seems to have made a slight difference although the pictures dont show it much. will need to experiment a bit more with that displacement to make it look better ( rougher in some places etc ). I have added some pipes along a few buildings for now which has added some aeisthetic detail and also changed this bench area to a eletrical machinery bit. I havnt used a blend texture yet though.

I havnt had much time this weekend to map at all, but right now I am mapping and seeing what I can do to make this look better. ignore the lighting thats only temporary for now as i dont like the full bright thing. I have also added some tall apartment buildings behind which are not permanent but just to see what it would look like with buildings behind, which adds a lot to the whole level i must say. instant boost in detail. tell me what you think of these pics, the changes proberly look very suttle, still cant get that road looking detailed though, maybe instead of a bend because i really want to keep this straight a heigh increase in places? thanks for any help


A look at the road


another view


added electrical genarator bit and temporary building to see what a building behind might look like ( maybe a quick side mission where you have to cut the power would be good here gameplay wise? )


displacement road ( notice the difference at all? )




What do you think?
thank you for all the help guys its really helping

[Modifier]

Another update on the map, im storming right through this map tonight, added trash, some move_rope cables, decals, overlays and added a bend in the road with added height. ignore the metal warehouse thing, im just wondering what to put there, i might stop at that bit for a while, then plan it out alot more, I have given myself 29 days to complete this map, possible? maybe, but im forcing myself to finnish this, already have the layout mostly done, now just wondering which buildings go where and how... anyway tell me what you think of these


cables and added detail


another view


another view with decals and objects


closer up view of decals and objects


another view


new bend in the road


another view of the bend in the road showing heigh difference as the road carries on up ( ignore the random metal building, any ideas what to put there? )


ammount done so far and top view layout for the first section

any feedback on what I have done? thanks for the help

[Jike]

hey, that is starting to look much better. still bland in some spots, but wow, it's surely getting somewhere! Keep up with it.

Sit down sketch your street onto a sheet of paper and extend as much as you can, thinking "what will the player do here?"

Good luck!

[Modifier]

hey, that is starting to look much better. still bland in some spots, but wow, it's surely getting somewhere! Keep up with it.

Sit down sketch your street onto a sheet of paper and extend as much as you can, thinking "what will the player do here?"

Good luck!

Thanks Im glad its starting to come together still bland in some spots of course, going to work on those later. thanks
thats what I have been doing the last few days, i thought to myself there isnt enough planning or imagination, so i have redifined the layout of the whole map minus that street.

Update to everyone, I have decided to give myself a dead line to complete this map, or at least up to respectable standards. 27 days left now till completion, this should help me get a move on lol

[Teh Frog]

This looks really nice bro. Great building design and I like the whole European City-17 feel too it. I also like the direction the light is pointing at, giving some noticeable and eye drawing shadows. One of the key aspects in a map that will set your map ahead of the pact is lighting and you make a good use of it. Keep working at it man!

[MrTwoVideoCards]

One of the key elements city17 possesses is it's "cramped" feeling and nature. By design, the buildings are tall, generally more than 3-4 floors. With that the city often expresses detail through vertical space.

The city' city17 is based off in real life is sitting next to a mountain range, and has plenty of different elevation levels. Thats something you might want to try out, is different elevation levels. Lastly a lot of geometry in city17 is often angled at 18-26 degrees. Often at times this helps optimization, but keeps that consistent "zig-zag" feeling city17 also possesses.

Lastly, city17 at the time was based off of sub-Victorian architecture. Theres specifically a lot of detail around windows, trimming, and rooftops. Mostly all of city17's detail concentrates on vertical space, versus horizontal.