Taking on a mod project only to fail these days.

[Jangalomph]

Well after a discussion has started in the random thread I decided it was time to make a separate thread so we can all gather our ideas on it!

Basically many mods are like "ohhh well source can't do what we want so we're gonna switch and go indie." And then when they do they generally fail, lose some aspect of game play or graphics from source, and it just won't feel the same any more.

We can take raindrop for example. Despite team mis-communication raindrop (after making amazing scenes in source)


Decided to switch to a custom ogre engine angering the community. Then in the midst of the switch they apparently couldn't make it work as they planned and tried to go to Cryengine 3. All of this switching obviously made the apparent death of the mod as if they had just stayed with source it probably would have been done by now. Though I don't think master donut "leader" had much to do with all of the switching around. And I believe the mod was a run away train that he couldn't stop after his team took initiative to control it.


We've also recently heard of Ivans secrets switching to Cryengine 3, with the possibility of going indie with it. Their mod team is capable of it, but it also lets down many source fans. Going indie in my opinion is wonderful as long as you stick with the original ideas people "fell inlove with."

[Dr. Delta]

I think it's mostly the experience a team has with an engine. If they had proficient knowledge of Ogre it could have worked just fine. Switching engines is something many studios have done and mostly always has turned out to be a big hassle, especially when the pipeline is different. Switching from UE2 to UE3 will probably be a lot easier than switching from Source to UDK/CryEngine/Ogre since the pipeline is completely different.

I also think it might be quite demotivating to do so during production.

[Jangalomph]

And it really does depend on how much team resources you have and how willing every one is to do it. I really think Ivans secrets will make it. I just think source would have done them well and it would've been nice to show what they have done on source. But If they hold out and stick together then it can be done. It just seems like a "restart" all over again. Then again my friend figured out how to get stuff from hammer into cryengine 3. Which is awesome because that means that I can finally make buildings without modelling them.

[Gary]

How many indie Source games are there? It's not only more difficult to get a Source engine license, but it's also a lot less appealing. Think about it:

UDK-
DX11 Features
Faster Render-er
Monthly Updates(likely faster for licensees)
Advanced tools, with distributed compiling, realtime previews, visual material and cinematic editor.
UnrealLightmass, which is static like Source, but can handle more advanced(like volumetric) lighting and more lights overall.
Dedicated licensee wiki
How many AAA games use this engine now? Oh, here is a list(not all of them are AAA): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... l_Engine_3

Source-
DX9-only features
Scales back well on old hardware
Outdated tools, even if they were updated recently, they have no modern features like the UDK and CryEditor have.


Why go through the trouble of using licensing Source, when UDK is easier to and when the UDK has more advantages. I could see, if you nearly completed your mod, you wouldn't want to have to redo so much. But think about it, for example, Ivan's secrets; how many maps have they even done? Maps are really the only thing you can't port. Pretty much everything else is easy to port to another engine as long as you got the source files.

[Dr. Delta]

It just seems like a "restart" all over again. Then again my friend figured out how to get stuff from hammer into cryengine 3. Which is awesome because that means that I can finally make buildings without modelling them.

Yea you shouldn't. CryEngine and UDK or 'not really' brush-based engine. So just learn to model, and you'll be able to add way more detail into what you make.

[nub]

Aw...Raindrop died?

[ErikKiller]

It seems like general lack of motivation has struck the globe?

[Welsh Mullet]

I think it's generally how money orientated the gaming world have become...
not to mention the ressetion.
And the new generation of gamers that DEMAND a game to look good or cast it off as last gen rubbish...

Makes me sad.

[Armageddon]

It seems like general lack of motivation has struck the globe?

This is pretty much it. Atleast Ivans is changing for destructible and larger environments, Raindrop changed for money.

[MrTwoVideoCards]

Well as far as I know about Ivans is that Jlea lost all of the source code for the 2007 build, and they moved up to ASW. I don't think I feel bad about them going indie, it just kind of surprises me. Jlea is pretty good at programming great gameplay systems and such, and he definitely has the care for that, but man, this is the teams third time more or less rebuilding the game.

But if Cryengine 3 can offer more, than that's what it's all about. The idea about going indie is a completely misunderstood one. Most people tend to go indie because they feel they can suddenly make money for what they're doing, and this somewhat overshadows a lot of the main benefits that being indie can give you. I think that going indie is totally alright if it helps you solve problems in the design area. If you want to make a game, and you have the know how, but the engine is limiting, then sometimes going indie can help solve that.

With picking an engine it obviously goes hand in hand. But I disagree with most people arguing why UDK is better or yadda yadda yadda. It's about what your game needs, and whether or not the engine already has it, or could have. Switching to an engine just because it has all of these cool things isn't a really good reason, mainly if you never plan on using all of the given features. But Ivan's seems to be on the right trail. Cryengine does everything better in regards to what the mod needs. large open spaces, better model rendering and outdoor rendering for vast spaces. And that's the core of the mod more or less in terms of specific features the mod revolves around. So it's a good idea.

[Spike]

I'm working on a project in UDK now. I'm not taking it serious. But you can get a working RTS game from UDK in about 3 weeks without any UDK base.

It's fast to learn, there's a ton of documentation, easy to code, easy to map, importing assets is extremely easy and supports a ton of formats (textures and models), shaders can be created on the editor instead of coding them, preview of the map looks as good as inside the game, play from the editor anytime, long etc

Source is outdated, it's workflow is tedious and most mods will fail in it.

[Stormy]

I have been moving to UDK as well, and I'm not making any plans to come back. I still know how to compile for source, and am freelancing for it, but for personal projects I am using UDK. Learning to mod with source was a baptism by fire. There is a lack of any serious documentation, by the time you find out how to do something you are so exhausted that you can't be assed to post about it on the VDC and so nothing is ever properly fleshed out. Source was made with a totally introverted mindset: by valve, for valve. People who want to learn to work in source can do so on their own back.

In any mod team you learn so much about games design as you progress making the mod. An inevitable lesson is that source is holding you back. Hammer was made way back and valve have done little to enhance its capabilities. UDKEd was made recently and enhances on the level editor design. Anyone who has made a model for source and then a model for UDK will have to agree, UDK takes the cake. Drag and drop and gui material editor (not only gui, but very powerful) means you don't have to learn the .qc and .vmt operators in and out to be a common modeller. I'm not saying that UDK is just better than source, I'm saying that source is just bad.

It's also as spike says, most mods will fail in source. Mods are a stepping stone to game development. No one makes mods for a living. Except maybe Garry but shut up you cantankerous troglodyte. Mods are supposed to be relatively easy to make because your art assets are already created and the game is already functional, you're just adding to it. Once mods start making all their own content the whole reason for making a free mod disappears. You aren't even making a mod anymore, you're making a game on an unlicensed engine. Source is not known for its ease of licensing. By Valve for Valve. UDK offers a no royalty deal before $50,000, so any aspiring modder-come-game-dev makes the logical leap. While we're making all our own content we might as well allow ourselves to make money from our endeavours. It's not a leap to UDK in order to capitalise on hype, it's keeping doors open.

I commend mods that make the leap to indie successfully. It's discouraging to have to change to another engine. Models may be easily converted but it still takes time, and different engines render shaders differently so a lot of adjusting on models that have already taken a long time to make have to be tweaked even further. Maps would have to be completely redone which would make the environment artists have a hard time and scripts would have to be reworked, making the programmers workload backup again. However since they have already made the game once, the second time they can pick up on the things they want to fix and if they get through the teething stages the game is generally better for it, I think.

[Gambini]

What has been keeping me away from UDK all this time is that, with Source I have the base of a game that works more or less the way i want my mod/game to work. In UDK instead it looks like I should create a lot of stuff from scratch, and i dont have idea of how. Source is all the bad things mentioned above but it is singleplayer oriented and has a lot of stuff prebaked that most modders would not be able to do well (if doing at all). If somebody does ever a singleplayer framework for UDK i´d switch to it without a doubt.

[nub]

The only thing keeping me from abandoning Source to move on to UDK is my lack of motivation to actually learn UDK. I know how awesome UDK is, and I love Unreal Engine 3, but I already know how to use Hammer.

And, again, my lack of motivation also keeps me from even thinking about starting a mod of my own. I did start Pipe Dream originally, but I was totally not prepared for it and had no idea what I was getting myself in to, so I gave it to Zip since he was way more sensible. I just hope he hasn't given up on it since he was heading in a good direction with it.

[Phott]

Well.. I started my own mod project, it's nothing major but something to keep me occupied. Might have some videos and screens to post here pretty soon to show the main concept. I still think Source Modding is alive and kicking, hell.. Even Gold Source modding is still going with some seriously talented people (Cry of Fear).