The energy crisis and you

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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Menno21 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:26 am

Stormy, you are right^^

I am not educated in nuclear power, or had any research in it before,, I will shut up haha
But I just understood from many, that nuclear isnt 100% stable, and if not, I am against, and yeah nobody can predict a tsunami before. But people must learn dont build this powerplants in areas were nature can do his destroy work. I know it can happen everywhere, so dont take this risks of nuclear disasters. Thats all I wanted to say :P

There are enough other methods more and more saver and human exist friendly ..
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Ich 666 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:34 am

Why are you always trying to get the discussion focussed on game development? Thats really the least problem that needs to be solved, when we get into a REAL energy crisis.

So back to topic: I dont really think that we'll run out of oil "all of a sudden", if anything the prices will go up, thus making our current live standards impossible to hold without a new energy source. This will naturally change the way of everyones lives here. It wont be possible to eat meat everyday, because the animals here are fed with soja beans from brazilia, which will be too expensive to ship after an energy crisis. We wont have fruits from all over the world in a local supermarket anymore. We wont have out post sent over the globe in under a week anymore. But seeing this madness, shipping everything over large distances even when its not really needed, i regard this energy crisis as a good thing. Of course everyone will have to lower their standards, but everyone should have known that the luxury we live in wont last forever.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Major Banter on Fri May 18, 2012 9:42 am

I agree with Ich. The topic of game development's future in this world is uncertain, and also unpredictable. For all we know it could go the way of the dinosaur, or it could just exist in the same way a book does today; by and large going obsolete (in the West!), but still very much in production.

What's more, we can't predict where society will head; will games become an unacceptable waste of precious resource or one of our few moments to escape? Or will they just carry on as normal, somehow propelled by a need for escapism in a difficult world? Or will the world and humanity do what they do best and just sort of...get on with it?

I don't the answer to any of these questions or statements, and while I like speculation as much as the next man, the one thing I can give a fairly definitive answer to is resource questions - the core of the argument.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Black_Stormy on Fri May 18, 2012 11:18 pm

Ich 666 wrote:Why are you always trying to get the discussion focussed on game development? Thats really the least problem that needs to be solved, when we get into a REAL energy crisis.


There's no way we can stop this rollercoaster ride, everyone loves to talk about "we need to solve this" It's not something that can be solved any more than Indiana Jones could have turned around and stopped that rolling boulder. The oil is running out and developing countries are consuming more and more daily. The only thing we can have an effect on is our own experience of the situation so I am particularly speculating about that.

MB's asking the questions more elegantly than I have, what is going to happen to games development in a resource-depleted world? Should we all stop right now because in ten years there will be no digital entertainment and all this study and effort will be for naught? I don't want to because I love doing it but I'm wondering if anyone else has made that connection.

A common reaction to an energy crisis debate is "come on guys, let's fix it" but it's not up to the educated few to fix the problems caused by the dumb bleating masses. There needs to be a universal paradigm shift in order to move to sustainable practices and that's not going to happen. There are still people decking out their cars and rapidly burning way more fuel than necessary. Corporations are still obsessed with growth rather than sustainability. People are still greedy and stupid. The concept of environmental change has to be marketed to these people, they won't make that connection themselves, and no amount of talking about it on a forum is going to have any effect on their narrow worldviews.

So my point with all that stream of consciousness typing is that we won't have any effect on the collapse, we only have an effect on our perception of it and on how much we will collapse with it. Will the collapse cause so much trouble that we should give up on our dreams of making games? Should we instead focus our spare time on creating content that will last in a post-information-age world? Are our various games-career/hobby pursuits valid, considering the possible future collapse?

Ich 666 wrote:Of course everyone will have to lower their standards, but everyone should have known that the luxury we live in wont last forever.


Also this. I'm pretty sure the majority of the population (at least in bogan-filled and education-shy Australia) don't know this and when I try to tell them this they behave like fucking monkeys.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby kkirspel on Sat May 19, 2012 5:24 am

Black_Stormy wrote:A common reaction to an energy crisis debate is "come on guys, let's fix it" but it's not up to the educated few to fix the problems caused by the dumb bleating masses. There needs to be a universal paradigm shift in order to move to sustainable practices and that's not going to happen. There are still people decking out their cars and rapidly burning way more fuel than necessary. Corporations are still obsessed with growth rather than sustainability. People are still greedy and stupid. The concept of environmental change has to be marketed to these people, they won't make that connection themselves, and no amount of talking about it on a forum is going to have any effect on their narrow worldviews.

Marry me?

Seriously, like you both have been saying, the common person thinks things will never change, that the life they've been born into and grown accustomed to will always be there no matter what. Its completely short sighted and I meet far too many people that think this way. It scares me.

Personally (and we've talked about this on other threads) I plan to have a solar paneled home and an electric car as soon as I can possibly afford them (and when they're reliable/efficient enough). Those together solve a great handful of problems for myself personally (food, healthcare, communication, and financial means have the potential to still be royally fucked I guess), but not enough people are thinking this way and look at their next paycheck as something to fund the upcoming weekend. When the time comes, I'm afraid they'll be caught completely off guard. In some ways, I think whole nations might be caught off guard.

I hope I'm just being paranoid/dramatic though and the necessary steps will be proactively taken by the right amount of people. If anything I hang a lot of hope on corporate greed taking those steps out of self interest and begin helping motivate the masses.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Black_Stormy on Sat May 19, 2012 9:21 am

I think if anything is going to save us it will ironically be corporate greed. When the masses can no longer afford to buy shit (read: send rich people their money) then the rich will need to devise new ways to extract their cash. This is already happening, slap 'green' on anything in a supermarket and you'll pull in more sales. So the ignorance of the masses can be the saviour just as much as the death knell. Personally I already do things considered strange. I pee in the garden every time because I refuse to piss in fresh drinking water, I keep a compost pile even though I live in the burbs, I use it to grow herbs and pot veggies, I consciously weigh up just how much I need to drive my car every time I get in it (at this stage I get about 3 weeks out of a tank) but all this shit isn't a drop in the ocean. I'm lucky if these actions delay the collapse by a few seconds.

But these are all points that have been made. what has it got to do with game development? Is it worth it? Do you feel validated, even with the knowledge that you might be barking up a dying tree? Why do you continue to make games?
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Major Banter on Sat May 19, 2012 10:28 am

Black_Stormy wrote:Why do you continue to make games?

The same reason I always have. Because I enjoy it.

If the world's going to hell, I may as well keep doing what I enjoy to distract myself.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Gary on Sat May 19, 2012 11:39 am

What Banter said.


I'll stop modding when I'm forced to hunt for food and defend my home from raiders. Or when/if I stop enjoying it.
Have a question related to modding or something I posted? Something that needs staff attention? I haven't been active lately, but feel free to PM me or message me on Steam(link below)

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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby DonPunch on Sun May 20, 2012 4:22 am

Or... you can do what smart business people do and not put all your eggs into 1 basket. Invest the money you make, no matter how you make it. There is no reason to not do something until it becomes unprofitable, or the risk/reward becomes unbalenced.

I have a number of things keeping me afloat right now, game developement is the funnest one (although its the only venture not to produce money yet).

Money is king, and until that changes, no one will. Example: Q - Why dont we just make everything green right now? A - It's too expensive.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby amckern on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:18 am

For large transport why not look at coal dust, and convert existing engines to steam powered - think of a steam punk style Mac truck?

The other thing we could do is go 100% ethenol - most people now days use a 90/10 mix - india uses a larger mix.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby Jeeves on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:54 am

I don't believe the hype, nobody has yet proven that the oil supply is finite; or even conclusively disproved the theory that fossil fuel is produced by some other earth process, though many scientists came down on it like a ton of bricks initially. IMO there's too many conflicting stories and unless your in with the money men then your not going to get the truth, I reckon that we won't see anything happen in our lifetime, so games are probably safe for the next couple of decades.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby nub on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:09 am

What's with all these dooms day-ish scenarios that scientists keep predicting will happen? There's global warming causing the polar ice caps to melt, thus flooding the earth. Then there's the paralysis disease plaguing honey bees, which could eventually wipe them out completely, which would in turn fuck over plant life throughout the globe, and now there's the potential of us running out of energy? Are we really that fucked over?


DonPunch wrote:Q - Why don't we just make everything green right now? A - It's too expensive.

It's not that it's too expensive, it's just that the oil industry is so fucking lucrative that alternative fuels will never become mainstream unless they can be controlled to the point where it's just as lucrative as oil, if not more so. Corporate greed is a major issue, essentially. You aren't incorrect though, it would be pretty expensive to just make everything green, but that shouldn't stop it from eventually happening. However, it definitely needs to happen in my opinion. It just makes sense to rely on fuels that are friendly to the ecosystem. Unfortunately, that's not a good enough reason it seems.


amckern wrote:For large transport why not look at coal dust, and convert existing engines to steam powered - think of a steam punk style Mac truck?

Aren't steam engines incredibly fucking dangerous though? I remember reading about steam engines on old cars exploding and pieces of the car were found nearly a mile away from where the explosion occurred. That's a lot of force.


Jeeves wrote:nobody has yet proven that the oil supply is finite

I was always under the assumption that oil would always be around as long as there was life. It's made from fossilized organic material after all. Isn't the Earth technically just very slowly replenishing the oil supply by fossilizing organic matter then forming that in to new oil? Oil reservoirs might dry up when they're farmed enough but it doesn't mean new ones won't form. Granted that would take ages but...yeah I think oil is infinite, just not for us. :-D


Jeeves wrote:I reckon that we won't see anything happen in our lifetime, so games are probably safe for the next couple of decades.

I agree, but games should be safe for longer than a couple of decades.
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Re: The energy crisis and you

Postby zombie@computer on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:06 am

Jeeves wrote:I don't believe the hype, nobody has yet proven that the oil supply is finite;
Oil supply is finite because we get it from the earth. The earth is a finite volume, q.e.d. the supply of oil has to be finite as well.
Whether or not it is remade faster than we use it is another story, however...
Jeeves wrote:or even conclusively disproved the theory that fossil fuel is produced by some other earth process, though many scientists came down on it like a ton of bricks initially.
That's pretty vague, care to link? Nobody disproved god made all the oil in the world either, and no one ever can. That doesn't mean we should just squander our reserves because its unclear whether or not god will restock our planet tomorrow.
The fact that oil consists of C's and H's chains we find in plants and the like, and that we can produce oil by compressing plants into a mush, isn't enough proof that oil comes from plants? What more proof do you need?

Jeeves wrote:IMO there's too many conflicting stories and unless your in with the money men then your not going to get the truth, I reckon that we won't see anything happen in our lifetime, so games are probably safe for the next couple of decades.
I agree we will never know the current status of oil reserves. There could be bubbles left untoched that would supply the world for eons, we could be drilling fumes tomorrow. Or even yesterday. However, there is nothing wrong with finding another source of energy we are sure to not run out in the next 100 years. Wouldn't you agree its better to rely on a form of energy we know is (roughly) infinite than on an energy source most of us agree will run out sooner or later? Besides, if we want to survive as a species we are going to have to rid ourselves of the dependance on things one can only find in the soil of our own planet. Oil would definitely be one of those things.

amckern wrote:For large transport why not look at coal dust, and convert existing engines to steam powered - think of a steam punk style Mac truck?
coal dust is just as polluting as coal, which, surprise surprise, is also a finite source of power. Sure, it'll last 100's of years now, but imagine how much shorter itll last if we run out of oil and have to use coal instead. Besides that, coal dust is extremely carcinogenic. As for steam engines, how would steam power help us? We need fossil fuels to create the steam, and there is no engine we know of more efficient in creating movement out of fossil fuels than the one in our cars n boats and planes.

amckern wrote:The other thing we could do is go 100% ethenol - most people now days use a 90/10 mix - india uses a larger mix.
Again, how would that solve anything? Sure, its 'bio' oil, but we simply do not have enough earth to generate enough to run all engines that currently run oil. Unless, ofcourse, we choose to starve to death in order to keep our gastanks full.
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Abiogenic fossil fuel

Postby Jeeves on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:13 pm

zombie@computer

The wiki page lists some pros and cons about it.

from a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Also I think you misunderstand me when i say finite, i don't mean it in a mathematical context.
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Re: Abiogenic fossil fuel

Postby zombie@computer on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:25 pm

Jeeves wrote:zombie@computer

The wiki page lists some pros and cons about it.

from a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Also I think you misunderstand me when i say finite, i don't mean it in a mathematical context.

im not convinced but its interesting. Thanks!
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