Nightfall Post Mortem

Discuss modifications and also recruit team members.

Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Lord Ned on Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:30 am

Okay In post:

If you've got a really solid team, you've worked on stuff before, you know each other real well, etc, yeah it's fine to share resources. (Though I don't see why you need to share code, unless your giving an example/asking for help)


Now if your trying to put togeather a team of people you don't know, I think what I said earlier applies more to this category.


My Feeling on leaders: You should have one solid guy (Probably also your coder. ;)) and then two other guys who are also another position that both have leading skills. That way if you go under (Which you shouldn't) then they can both step up and say 'Well that's a bit of a setback, but we've still got the code, let's continue on.', etc.


I think without a real leader, there would be no real organization, and people would drift off onto their own projects.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Inveramsay on Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:21 pm

I'd like to disagree with you on who is the leader, often it is the coder but that is bad if you actually need him to devote time to leading as coding will come to a halt. Lets face it, most mod teams only have one coder. The leader however needs to have general knowledge of every aspect of making the mod, he needs to know the basics of all the disciplines like animation, mapping, modelling but most importantly he needs to be a competent leader.

What we do in the mod I'm a member of is that we put many who display some aptitude towards a field in a group called affiliated developers. These people don't necessarily have access to the alpha build but do if they show dedication. Then when their personality and dedication has been shown they are taken on as team members. I know, I started that way. This is to me an excellent system that boosts morale for many even if they aren't allowed full team membership directly.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby MrTwoVideoCards on Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:37 pm

I find that it's easier if no one leads in my Team, sure in general someone is slightly in charge. But at the end of the day you avoid alot more problems, but once again this is based on the size of your team, and how well the Team itself can work together.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Lord Ned on Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:45 pm

As for the coder = leader thing: If your leader wasn't the coder,wouldn't that cause problems? The coder knows his limits, and what he can do, the leader may not. So (the leader) may get frustrated time and time again, when the coder is unable to do what he wants, or it's not exactly how he wants. I dunno, it falls back to again, how solid of a team you have.

How much time does actual leading takes? You shouldn't have a leader that just leads, it goes like community maps: 'Hayguyz do mahwork for me, I take credit lulz' -- So coder is a logical position. The code is the hardest part of a mod to re-create if someone leaves.

TwoVC's:

What we do in the mod I'm a member of is that we put many who display some aptitude towards a field in a group called affiliated developers. These people don't necessarily have access to the alpha build but do if they show dedication. Then when their personality and dedication has been shown they are taken on as team members. I know, I started that way. This is to me an excellent system that boosts morale for many even if they aren't allowed full team membership directly.


Yeah.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Inveramsay on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:48 pm

It is better having a good leader than a coder that is a leader. What you do need to agree on in the mod is that you have permission for anything that is submitted to the mod even if a member leaves the team.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Lord Ned on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:52 pm

When you start out though -- How are you going to convince people that they wanna join? Maps and models don't convince people, code does.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Yorick on Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:25 am

Lord Ned wrote:When you start out though -- How are you going to convince people that they wanna join? Maps and models don't convince people, code does.


You guys realize it's possible to make a new mod without introducing a pile of new code, right?
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Lord Ned on Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:58 am

And what do you have? Another generic shitty hl2 mod that no one plays, since there's a million of them. They don't stand out like Empires, or Dystopia, etc.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Kremator on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:08 am

I remember something called Minerva, yeah?
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby KILLA-COW on Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:01 am

Cremator just won at life.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Mess on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:08 pm

Lord Ned wrote:And what do you have? Another generic shitty hl2 mod that no one plays, since there's a million of them. They don't stand out like Empires, or Dystopia, etc.


You don't need new assets to make good gameplay, or even different gameplay. I would actually prefer mods that offer different experiences without new assets, as it shows real imagination and reduces my download size.

http://sdk-project.com/ should help alter your view.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Wraiyth on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:03 pm

Would you rather: Have some untrust for a while but a working mod, or put a ton of your hard work into the mod, then boom someone takes it and runs?

Unless you trust your team, you're not going to get anywhere. Working under the premise that someone is going to steal your stuff is the least productive thing you can do. It would be like driving under the idea that you're going to get killed in a car accident, walking around like you're gonna get stabbed, whatever analogy you want to draw.
The idea of limiting access to content is ridiculous, though. Its really a non-argument for the reasons others outlined here. You don't go about planning a team structure with the idea of trying to account for all these issues - people leaving, delays, asset theft etc, because it simply won't work. You're main concern when you're making a mod should be... making the mod, not holding other peoples hands or making sure that you're always going to be fine with everything you do, because no matter how hard you try, something is gonna come back to bite you in the arse. Create an environment of trust, where people WANT to be involved with a product and won't be motivated to try and use the team's work for their own needs. You'll always get bad apples, but just like everything else, modding is also a game of luck.


Coders as team leader is an interesting one, because the most important thing as a leader is being a good manager of people, and its no secret that coders generally aren't. People percieve the most successful/released mods are ones with the coder as the leader, but its a bit of a misperception I guess. They are successful because they had someone filling the position hardest to find, and someone that could stay for the duration of the project.

And what do you have? Another generic shitty hl2 mod that no one plays, since there's a million of them. They don't stand out like Empires, or Dystopia, etc.

What you're talking about here is a very hard thing to answer. I think I said somewhere in that artice that 95% of mods fail, and of the 5% that don't, 95% suck. We're talking about a very small chance of success here, and you can have the most kick arse idea on the planet, but if things just don't go your way, you're not going to be a GMod or a Dystopia or an Empires. In the commercial world, it would be like comparing yourself to Microsoft or Apple or IBM. There is a 95% chance that your commercial venture isn't going to be anywhere near as successful as those, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.
What it comes down to is... why do you mod? I mod for fun and as a way of building a portfolio to help me get into the industry. When you mod you should be making things YOU like, making things YOU want to play. Building something for other people has less of a chance of being successful. If your aim in modding is to go and be like Dystopia or Empires, then you're starting off on the wrong foot anyway.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Lord Ned on Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:14 pm

Interlopers should do a 30 day mod, just to prove all this that we've woefully gone over. :|
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby Wraiyth on Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:14 am

Theres nothing that needs to be proven, trying to do so would be a waste of time and effort. Look at other teams, their successes and failures, and you'll see all the points raised in one form or another. Same with commercial games.
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Re: Nightfall Post Mortem

Postby burninwater on Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:18 pm

great write up wraith, its sad to see it go but well shit happens

and to get back to the leader thing:
before you can say who is a good leader ya should ask the following questions:
What does he or she do?
Does he or she motivates people around him/her?
Does he/she has enough time to keep everyone going and maybe pull some strings to keep stuff upto speed
and does he/she has any experience with in this case modding and to a certain degree is he or she smart or flat out dumb like the behind of a donkey?

The biggest things a good leader needs is an x-factor, its kinda hard to describe but people who worked on mods or just worked in general know what i mean there are leaders that well tell you to do something and you well feel like forced into doing it and there are leaders who ask ya to do something and ya feel happy to do it. And that is the hardest part, being able to inspire and motivate people
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