klyemar wrote:coder0xff wrote:no00dylan wrote:You can't make one suffer without them knowing, because a part of suffering is being aware.
Does that mean an animal that isn't self aware can't suffer? ( just for the sake of argument)
That's a good question. In my opinion I don't think an animal that isn't sufficiently aware can suffer, at least in terms of emotional stress. I remember watching a video a couple years ago where researchers were trying to figure out if animals experienced stress like humans did. They were checking blood cortisol levels in different animals to see if they remained stressed after a bad experience, like a lion attack. Humans can have heightened levels of the hormone even hours after a stressing event since we're capable of rehashing it again and again in our minds. Deer that had been chased by a lion had an extremely high level immediately after they ran away, but it would be down to normal after a few minutes, like they had forgotten that had even happened (munch, munch, munch, oh shit run!, munch, munch, munch). Apes on the other hand, would have very high levels of the stress hormone hours after something as small as a social altercation with the alpha male, over some females. Since they're cognitive animals, they were actually experiencing what could be social stress and anxiety, unlike the deer that were fine just minutes after having their lives threatened.
This is a great discussion. Personally I believe that physical suffering, meaning pain, is something that every living being with nerves could experience. As for EMOTIONAL stress, well that really depends on how you define that.
I think that most animals, when facing danger, try to avoid it and feel stressed or frightened during their run. Running away from danger is the most basic instinct every living being has, and I guess that a mechanism of fear or stress causes the animal to flee and concentrate on the danger, for a better chance to survive. More complex feelings like anger can also be seen in nature but not everywhere - it takes a more complicated mind to be angry (for instance, a you can piss off a dog, but not a cockroach, wouldn't you say?). I believe that a mother cat who's seeing her cubs fall into some tragedy feels a certain level of stress, but I don't know if it shall mourn their fate. I think that animals' ability to feel it pretty limited, but that's just my opinion and I'm sure many pet-owners will disagree. Most of them will be dog owners though, and maybe a few cat owners, but not fish-owners. See my point?
Social stress is another thing completely, I don't think that a lot of animals if any, can feel embarrassment, shame or compassion for instance. To feel these requires things like morals and a social code. Most animals' life is much more simple than this.
As for I-Doser, it has really verified a thought I had before: that everything we feel and experience is in our minds. And that is the most powerful thing in each person's existence. We experience everything through the mind, and the implications are really drastic: we most likely have no soul or anything that isn't material in our existence; there is no such thing as life after death, once your mind is gone that's the end of it; all religion is really a bunch of myths carved together from delusions and legends; and oh-so-many more sad truths. I had suspected those in the past, but seeing how powerfully our mind affects our perception, I'm pretty sure by now.
There are also positive results to this discovery: Any kind of investment in our minds is a good thing, like meditation, yoga, or even mantras that can change the frequency of your brainwave if practiced correctly; knowing that it's all in your head allows you to partially control the way you experience the world; realizing that the world around you is affected by the way you see it may help overcome some obstacles or understand that things aren't always as bad as they seem when you're down; and oh-so-many more great truths.
Cheers, I learned a great lesson from this experience.
