Our government breaks it's own laws again.

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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby k-dawg on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:10 am

Sorrow wrote:
K-Dawg wrote:find me a government that is 100% perfect. no. you cant.
find me a person who is 100% perfect. no. you cant.


I can find you a government that is at least 80% perfect, ours.
I can find you a person that is at least 99.9% perfect. me!

I wonder if the American economy crashes, will things turn to shit here as well? probably... not too happy about that, you should keep your loans and money problems on your own continent :P


ahh but not 100 %

communism is 100% perfect - on paper.
Marxism would be awesome. but doesnt exist.

and yea, us crashing would screw over everyone.

all it would take is 1 natural disaster and there would be no money to spend on relief efforts.

ahhh too tired to go on...

lol
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby ghost12332 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:38 am

Sorrow wrote:
K-Dawg wrote:find me a government that is 100% perfect. no. you cant.
find me a person who is 100% perfect. no. you cant.


I can find you a government that is at least 80% perfect, ours.
I can find you a person that is at least 99.9% perfect. me!

I wonder if the American economy crashes, will things turn to shit here as well? probably... not too happy about that, you should keep your loans and money problems on your own continent :P


Sorrow, our economy basically has crashed already.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby R26 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:49 am

k-dawg wrote:
Sorrow wrote:
K-Dawg wrote:find me a government that is 100% perfect. no. you cant.
find me a person who is 100% perfect. no. you cant.


I can find you a government that is at least 80% perfect, ours.
I can find you a person that is at least 99.9% perfect. me!

I wonder if the American economy crashes, will things turn to shit here as well? probably... not too happy about that, you should keep your loans and money problems on your own continent :P


ahh but not 100 %

communism is 100% perfect - on paper.
Marxism would be awesome. but doesnt exist.

and yea, us crashing would screw over everyone.

all it would take is 1 natural disaster and there would be no money to spend on relief efforts.

ahhh too tired to go on...

lol


except the economy of Cuba, Iran, and North Korea.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby dragonfliet on Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:13 pm

Mango wrote:The American shadow government is preparing for martial law.

Then a bunch more crazy shit invoking Godwin's law


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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Mango on Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:32 pm

dragonfliet wrote:
Mango wrote:The American shadow government is preparing for martial law.

Then a bunch more crazy shit invoking Godwin's law


:smt075


God forbid a militaristic and a fascist, repressive regime ever be compared to the Nazis. Oh no.

You think I'm being hyperbolic. I also alluded to the Communists. Is there a Goodwin's law for Communism? How about Ottoman Turks and the Armenian genocide? Is there such a law for the depressingly regular re-occurrence of despotic and tyrannical governments murdering their own and other nation's civilians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84
http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid={62C8724D-AE8A-4B5C-94C7-70171315C0A0}&dateid=38741.5136277662-858254656#comments
The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S.

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf - Army Regulation 210–35 - Civilian Inmate Labor Program.

The death camps in Germany and Russia started as work camps and prisons. In Germany and Russia labor armies were formed. Both during times of extreme economic upheaval. When the US and UK economies fall, you will see labor armies formed. It happened during WWII in the UK. Women were sent to logging camps run by corporations that got contracts paid for logging.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby firedfns13 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:55 pm

You guys forget how much power the media has in the US. They report what they want to report, and omit what doesnt go with their agenda.
And work/death camps certainly do not go along with that agenda.

I damn well would hate to be president because if you are lucky, the media goes easy on your for maybe a year. after that its all about how youre a screwup, no matter who under you screwed up. FEMA -> Bush; Iraq War -> Bush; everything is blamed on him when he gets the watered down picture to decide on in between his other 100 million duties.

however. The economy is crashing, and us taxpayers are fucked no matter what.
The bailout plan may be necessary (ive yet to decide if it is) but those fucking CEO and CFO twatbags should get absolutly $0 because they should have stopped this from happening. I'm even thinking jailtime should be in order since it is their fault that we have to pay into their companies the cost of 2 iraq wars, despite it all technically being legal what they did.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby k-dawg on Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:00 am

they would just make bail. and you cant strip an individual of his right to earn money. unless the IRS gets involved. or jail is enforced.

you could set the bail at like 5 billion dollars. but that would come out of the company... taking away from the companies ability to invest.

they get out of it no matter what.

i have a feeling the red mafia has something to do with this. im not hating on Russians, their mafia is by far the smartest we have seen.

making america broke would make great grounds for earning every possible dollar they can make.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Sacul15 on Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:44 am

firedfns13 wrote:The bailout plan may be necessary (ive yet to decide if it is) but those fucking CEO and CFO twatbags should get absolutly $0 because they should have stopped this from happening. I'm even thinking jailtime should be in order since it is their fault that we have to pay into their companies the cost of 2 iraq wars, despite it all technically being legal what they did.

Come on. Jailtime? You act as if these business men wanted this to happen. I agree that they (meaning the individual CEOs. The company bailouts might be a necessary evil) shouldn't be bailed out, but they've already destroyed their companies and their careers. Isn't that enough?

This isn't some huge conspiracy. "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." The fault lies with politicians who passed legislation that allowed (and in some instances, forced) financial institutions to give out unsound loans without accepting the responsibility that comes with bad decisions, banks who didn't think things through, and regular people who don't know how to read a contract.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Athlete{UK} on Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:29 am

Sacul15 wrote:
firedfns13 wrote:The bailout plan may be necessary (ive yet to decide if it is) but those fucking CEO and CFO twatbags should get absolutly $0 because they should have stopped this from happening. I'm even thinking jailtime should be in order since it is their fault that we have to pay into their companies the cost of 2 iraq wars, despite it all technically being legal what they did.

Come on. Jailtime? You act as if these business men wanted this to happen. I agree that they (meaning the individual CEOs. The company bailouts might be a necessary evil) shouldn't be bailed out, but they've already destroyed their companies and their careers. Isn't that enough?

This isn't some huge conspiracy. "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." The fault lies with politicians who passed legislation that allowed (and in some instances, forced) financial institutions to give out unsound loans without accepting the responsibility that comes with bad decisions, banks who didn't think things through, and regular people who don't know how to read a contract.


Quite frankly they gambled the money that wasn't theirs in abviously retarded ways without any consideration for the consiquences. Many thinking the consiquences might affect other people instead.

The fact is they might as well have wanted this to happen. It's disgusting behavior and tant amount to theft. Do you think these high powered business man will walk away with nothing? Ok they may have made large loses but large loses out of a hung fund still leaves a nice little bonus at the end.

They didn't want this to happen but they actively turned a blind eye and carried themselves in a rediculous manner with our money (first one to say "this is the USA not the UK" get the official fucking ignorant bastard award) Whilst I may not feel the need to push for it but honestly I wouldn't bat an eyelid at jailtime for them. That nasty bit of humanity in the back of my mind that's left over from less civilised times wants them to lose absoloutly everything and feel the hurt they've inflicted on other by proxy.

As for the whole conspiricy theory thing going on. I think there is crazyness on both sides of the argument here. All i'm seeing at the mo is "they want to rule the world and control everything" vs "Everything is fine and the government is entirely on our side"

It's a different discussion tbh but whilst I don't believe in the New World Order I do believe our culture is going down a very dark road atm.

I don't see it ending with a Nazu police state but I fear for the nanny state which monitors everything in an obsessive paranoid fear. I honestly think Mirrors edge is painting a pretty realistic picture of the future atm. Perhaps without the sexy free runners.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby firedfns13 on Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:46 am

I dont think theres a huge conspiracy, unless its one involving every single idiot in the world;
now we do know that at least 95% of the American public is retarded (do not dispute this, it is true, i have seen it) and i think that at least 99% of politicians are incredibly retarded.
so we re screwed in every single way possible.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Sacul15 on Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:04 am



Not praising the video or denouncing it. Just throwing it out there to see what people think.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Mr. Happy on Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:57 am

Wow there's so much wrong with that video it's hilarious.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with sub-prime mortgates when given to the right people. There's nothing wrong with sub-prime mortgages that aren't written in a way that force teh people not to be able to pay them off (most are).

Second of all, Frannie and Freddie aren't the reason for the bad subprime mortgages, the originating banks are.

Third of all, the ties to obama are tenuous.

Fourth of all, Republinuts need to stop blaming Clinton for everything wrong with everything. He did his best to fix the broken system he inherited, and mostly succeeded. Best president since Roosevelt imo. I didn't catch exactly what Clinton's reform was since alot of the "information" passed by so quickly to cover up it's crapiness.

Fifth of all, who stopped the Freddie Fannie legislation the first two times? The Democrats? Lol. The republicans were in control back then.

Sixth of all, why was it not passed in 2007? Because the republinuts tacked on a bunch of crap.

Seventh of all, another major component of all this that no one's talking about is that we built more houses than there are people, and new housing construction and subdivisions etc. is funded by loans.

And yes, de-regulation is the root cause. With regulation on the types of loans originating banks can offer we wouldn't have loans offered at low affordable rates that then skyrocket in after the first six months.

With regulation, we could add mortgage consultancy to the pro-bono pool, so that everyone has a lawyer to look it over with. Buying a bad mortgage isn't your fault when you think you understand the terms but don't. Most people need special education to understand the crap they right in there.

The idiot who made this video quotes a wikipedia article but didn't even read the whole thing.

An analysis by the law firm of Traiger & Hinckley, LLP, which counsels financial services entities on fair lending and Community Reinvestment Act compliance, concluded that CRA banks were less likely than other lenders to make high cost loans or to foreclose in certain metropolitan areas; they also were more likely to retain their original loans.[22]

Ellen Seidman, the former director of the US Office of Thrift Supervision, who also works at the New America Foundation,[20] has stated her belief that the CRA did not have an effect on the United States housing bubble. She observes that CRA banks were particularly warned to make responsible investments,

Robert Gordon[17] countered that approximately half of the loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA and thus had no government obligation to offer credit to minorities. In the later part of the crisis, these mortgage companies made subprime loans at twice the rate of CRA banks. Another third of the major subprime lenders were regulated but had very little CRA involvement.[18] Gordon also makes the argument that the weakening of the CRA in 2004 was followed by intensified subprime lending.

Some economists have questioned if CRA originally was, or at least had become, irrelevant because the CRA was not needed to force banks to make profitable loans to a variety of lenders.[13][14][15] Economist Howard Husock writes that a CRA-connected community group The Woodstock Institute found in a survey in the Chicago-area that even banks not subject to CRA tended to loan in a variety of of neighborhoods


Here's an interesting article: http://www.innercitypress.com/cra1bailout092808.html
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Sacul15 on Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:22 pm

I agree that the video greatly exaggerates the effects of the CRA and that it has a disgusting bias towards McCain, but I don't believe that all of its points are invalid.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with sub-prime mortgates when given to the right people. There's nothing wrong with sub-prime mortgages that aren't written in a way that force teh people not to be able to pay them off (most are).
You're right, but under the current system sub-prime mortgages given to those who cannot afford them have been made profitable. The Federal Reserve Board's policy of artificially low interest rates, as well as the backing of loans through taxpayer money, has a lot to do with this.

Second of all, Frannie and Freddie aren't the reason for the bad subprime mortgages, the originating banks are.
Like I said before, without those two institutions it would be incredibly unsound to issue said loans. One could argue that they didn't cause the problem, but they were certainly involved.

Third of all, the ties to obama are tenuous.
I agree, the bias is incredible. But does that make it wrong? I don't know if what the video says about him is true, but until those statements are disproven, I'm not going to declare him innocent.

Fourth of all, Republinuts need to stop blaming Clinton for everything wrong with everything. He did his best to fix the broken system he inherited, and mostly succeeded. Best president since Roosevelt imo. I didn't catch exactly what Clinton's reform was since alot of the "information" passed by so quickly to cover up it's crapiness.
To blame the Democrats for everything is absurd, but is there any evidence that they didn't help to fuel the fire? Here are Clinton's reforms. A notable passage: "Related rule changes gave Fannie and Freddie extraordinary leverage, allowing them to hold just 2.5% of capital to back their investments, vs. 10% for banks, encouraging banks to make even more loans to low income communities, often with no down payment and little documentation. By 2007, Fannie and Freddie owned or guaranteed nearly half of the $12 trillion U.S. mortgage market."

Fifth of all, who stopped the Freddie Fannie legislation the first two times? The Democrats? Lol. The republicans were in control back then.
I'm not refuting this, but do you have a source giving the vote? The Democrats (obviously with some Republicans) could still defeat it.

Sixth of all, why was it not passed in 2007? Because the republinuts tacked on a bunch of crap.
Again, source? You spelled Republicans incorrectly again, by the way.

Seventh of all, another major component of all this that no one's talking about is that we built more houses than there are people, and new housing construction and subdivisions etc. is funded by loans.
Please elaborate on the effect of this, as it's new info to me.

And yes, de-regulation is the root cause. With regulation on the types of loans originating banks can offer we wouldn't have loans offered at low affordable rates that then skyrocket in after the first six months.
Your second assertion is correct, but not your first. The problem is not deregulation, it's deregulation without giving back responsibility to banks for their actions. Like you said, sub-prime mortgages are not evil, but they are devastating when given to the wrong people. There are two ways to do this: yours, regulation. This would mean no (or fewer) loans. The problem would be solved, but the people who could take on a sub-prime mortgages(and possibly only a sub-prime mortage) would be denied them. The other option: making banks take responsibility for their bad decisions, would also fix the problem, and would allow those people to get the loans they need.
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Mr. Happy on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:38 am

Define "making them take responsibility."

I think your forgetting how loan's work, it's the same thing with credit cards. The banks make money by giving people money they can't completely afford. They make even more money when they can't afford it at all.

I mean the whole idea of credit is theoretically bad. Your giving away money in the hopes that over time people can pay it off. But people lose jobs etc. But really it is a good idea. Still, the only way to make MORE money off a loan, is to make it unaffordable.

In the short term it works out well, someone can't pay for one month and so there's additional interest on top of the original interest. Next month it get's worse because the payment is even higher, of course they can't pay it off.

If you can't afford even a few dollars of your payment, the interest builds upon itself and snowballs.

This is GOOD for banks, in the short term, and, sometimes, in the long term. They have a longer and larger income stream and if shit comes to shit they can reposs some assets.

It's even better for banks because they can write the anticipated income down as an asset, when it really doesn't exist, and probably will never come in.

It's fine for banks, but not when so many are done at once. The post-grad MBA's who come up with this crap at originating banks don't think ahead. They won't to seem innovative, they won't to sell more loans. They are incentivized, not de-incentivized, to do this crap.

The bad effects only come out years later, if at all. At that point all we can do is recess. And then decades later it happens again because people have no memory, and don't learn from past mistakes.

The thing is, that the loan's get securitzed and packaged into financial instruments and it floods up the financial food chain. When shit goes to shit, like it has recently, the originating banks collapse....they can no longer be held accountable, and the people holding the bag didn't ahve as much to do with it as they are blamed for.

So really the only way to deal is to stop the bad practice at the source. It really is a kind of fraud. I mean, I know there's the ideal of de-regulation being bad, but is it really bad to simply prevent banks from taking advantage of people who don't fully understand what they are signing up for, don't fully understand what they can afford, especially when it will cause the bank to collapse later?

EDIT: I do understand that it is good to let private business alone. That's fine, but it's not fine in the financial sector because the corporations grow so large that it can wreak havoc with the entire world's economy.

It's like letting a a chemical manufacturer dump their waste into the local town's water supply because "you should leave business alone the market will take care of it."
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Re: Our government breaks it's own laws again.

Postby Sacul15 on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:39 am

Under the current system (or what was until recently the current system), the government promoted bad loans through Fannie May and Freddie Mac (whose primary function is to promote home ownership), which purchase and guarantee them with taxpayer money. Without this easy method to take lending risks without accepting the consequences for them, the sub-prime explosion would have proven fatal for the first companies to even try it. This, along with the CRA, if removed, would force banks to take the losses of giving out loans that couldn't be paid back (when I say paid back, I mean the amount of the original loan- not including interest).

So really the only way to deal is to stop the bad practice at the source. It really is a kind of fraud. I mean, I know there's the ideal of de-regulation being bad, but is it really bad to simply prevent banks from taking advantage of people who don't fully understand what they are signing up for, don't fully understand what they can afford, especially when it will cause the bank to collapse later?
I would agree, except according to that contract both parties signed, the people did know what they were signing up for. It's quite simple- read the contract. If you don't understand it, don't sign.

This is a poorly written analogy, so I apologize in advance. Suppose you want to buy a car. The car salesman tells you wonderful things about it- it has a great engine, good sound system, it's eco-friendly, whatever. Before you buy the car, the car salesman hands you some documentation that you need to read through to make sure it's what you want. Either you are too lazy to try to understand the whole thing, or you just don't get it, but you buy the car regardless. A few days later, you realize that the mpg is 5. You go back to your documentation and see that it was printed there, albeit worded confusedly. Who's fault is it? Yes, it's a dick move by the car company, but you still signed. They haven't done anything illegal.

Now if the mpg wasn't in the documentation (and this might be the case for some of the loans, but I've never heard of such a case), then that is fraud and you have a case to be settled in court.

It's like letting a a chemical manufacturer dump their waste into the local town's water supply because "you should leave business alone the market will take care of it."
When the company affects only the town, then a free-market approach is successful, as either people boycott the company or they die (meaning no sales). This is the equivalent of having a few loans go bad under the free-market, which generally only affects the lender and the receiver. However, with more and more government involvement, taxpayers and Wallstreet (towns along a river, instead of one town on a lake) start to become affected as well.
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